At the back of the hill

Warning: If you stay here long enough you will gain weight! Grazing here strongly suggests that you are either omnivorous, or a glutton. And you might like cheese-doodles.
BTW: I'm presently searching for another person who likes cheese-doodles.
Please form a caseophilic line to the right. Thank you.

Tuesday, April 07, 2009

JEW-HATING SEDER AT METHODIST CHURCH

Sometimes the anti-Semites and self-hating crowd do something so staggeringly goofy that you really have to wonder what goes on their little pin-heads. Then you remember: these are Berkeleyites.
And suddenly everything falls into place.

Such as the pro-Palestinian anti-Israel 'seder' being held on Good Friday in a church. As advertised in the e-mail below.

[Please note: it's a fundraiser for self-haters AND anti-Semites, on a Christian holy day associated traditionally with pogroms and violence against Jews, and at a church. That is one hell of a set of symbolic confluences.]


Legacies of Resistance
a community Passover Seder dinner

Friday, April 10, 2009 :: 6pm
Lake Merrit United Methodist Church
(1255 1st Ave at International Blvd, Oakland)

Dinner will be served.
$15-50 sliding scale ($25 donation suggested), no one turned away for lack of funds
Funds raised will benefit IJAN and Middle East Children's Alliance,
to support local organizing and send emergency supplies to Gaza.
If you are unable to attend, but would still like to contribute, please use the RSVP form below.

Our capacity is limited, so please make your reservation early.
Click here to RSVP (preferred), email bay.ijsn+seder@gmail.com, or call (510) 343.6065.

All are welcome.
Childcare may be available with advance notice.

About IJAN:
IJAN is a growing international network of Jews whose Jewish identities are not based on Zionism but on a plurality of histories and experiences. We share a commitment to participation in the legacy of struggles against colonization and imperialism. As such, we struggle against Zionism and its manifestation in the State of Israel's historic and ongoing ethnic cleansing of the Palestinian people and the confiscation of their land.
www.ijsn.net

About MECA:
Founded in 1988, the Middle East Children's Alliance is a registered nonprofit organization working for the rights and the well being of children in the Middle East. MECA sends shipments of aid to Palestine, Iraq and Lebanon, and supports projects that make life better for the children. We educate North Americans about children in the region and the brutal impact of US foreign policy on their lives. MECA welcomes the support of all people who care about children and their future.
www.mecaforpeace.org


A note about food:
Food served will be Kosher-for-Passover Style -- it will not contain prohibited grains/foods, though may not all be certified Kosher. Additionally, remember that different cultural traditions -- Ashkenazi, Sephardi, Mizrahi -- observe Pesach differently, and therefore certain foods may vary from what you are accustomed to.
====================

NOTES

The Lake Merrit United Methodist Church is one of several Bay Area Churches that regularly host anti-Semitic events. This is their website: http://www.lakemerrittumc.org/

Yes, I know what some misguided people might now say - that being the usual self-satisfied priggish crap about criticism of Israel bla bla bla and Palestinian bla bla bla. Don't bother. That is just asinine nonsense, the Lake Merritt United Methodist Church IS bigoted, and the entire idea of the primary national narrative of Judaism being hijacked and malformed by a Church and a bunch of severely defective Jews-of-Convenience for the benefit of Israel-hating racists, is a nauseating exercise in hate, anti-Semitism, and offensiveness.

It is absolutely indefensible, and makes a mockery of both mutual tolerance and "interfaith" dialogue.


For your information, the other church in the East-Bay that is trying to revive the traditional 'we're better than that bunch' anti-Semitism is Saint John's Presbyterian Church, 2727 College Avenue, Berkeley. That's were the Sabeel conference was held on August 25, 2007. You may read about it here:
http://atthebackofthehill.blogspot.com/2007/08/saturday-among-cannibals.html

Rest assured that Berkeley Presbyterians fair make me vomit, especially when compared to strenge Dutch Calvinists. I'm none too happy with the Methodists either, but in the main something so eccentric as Methodism can be safely ignored.

Still, Tallullah Bankhead was a Methodist, as was Ulysses S. Grant - that means that they can't be all bad. Tallullah Bankhead!!!


And finally, I note with wry amusement that they clarified that food would be served. Anybody familiar with Passover would naturally assume that that was the case, but it is likely that the overwhelming majority of attendees will be severely self-righteous Prods and very superior people who do not know much about other cultures other than that they disapprove of them and normally don't socialize with that lot. These aren't the kind of people who naturally associate food with celebration or pleasure - that's what sneering disapproval is for.

Labels: , , , , ,

63 Comments:

  • At 3:25 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said…

    Without making a list of everything Halakhically wrong with the proposed Seder (i.e. "Kosher-style" always means "treyf") I bet that I know exactly WHICH green herb they use for Karpas!

    R

     
  • At 4:05 PM, Blogger Telmac said…

    The websites are surprisingly inconspicuous.

    Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.

     
  • At 4:40 PM, Anonymous Yoshiyahu said…

    Of course, one can ALSO view it from the perspective of either participating in a non-Jewish religious ritual, OR worship at a heathen altar.

    "Seest thou not what they do in the cities of Judah and in the streets of Jerusalem? The children gather wood, and the fathers kindle the fire, and the women knead their dough, to make cakes to the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto other gods, that they may provoke me to anger."

    —Jeremiah 7:17–18


    "... to burn incense unto the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto her, as we have done, we, and our fathers, our kings, and our princes, in the cities of Judah, and in the streets of Jerusalem ..."

    —Jeremiah 44:17


    Either a grove dedicated to a mother-goddess, or an altar / sacred enclosure dedicated to Baal.

     
  • At 4:55 PM, Anonymous Ha Rasha said…

    The Wicked Son: Anti-Semitism, Self-hatred, and the Jews (Jewish Encounters) (Hardcover)

    ...it is evident that Mamet is on to something, particularly in his views on the apparent increase in Jewish disdain for and rejection of their own culture. He ties Jewish self-hatred to anti-Semitism, asserting that the victims eventually wonder if they somehow "deserve" the opprobrium heaped on them. So called "emancipated" Jews may try to cleanse themselves of racial taint by disparaging "Jewish" traits. Of course, Mamet finds the worst manifestations of this self-hatred in those Jews who seem to delight in attacking the very existence of Israel.

     
  • At 4:57 PM, Anonymous Seichel said…

    What's more — and to be perfectly honest — the Seder developed, in part, as an anti-Christian polemic — a "slam" on the then-new and growing religion called Christianity. Such religious critique is all but absent from contemporary Seders, but the anti-Christian roots of the event are unmistakable.

    A church Seder is thus a Christian event rooted in anti-Christianity. It makes about as much sense as a GOP rally for Barack Obama or a symphony boosters fundraiser for punk rock.


    ...it strikes me as disingenuous for Christianity to reach back into Judaism to co-opt Jewish rituals that developed only after we split.

     
  • At 6:17 PM, Anonymous Ari said…

    Things I loved about the flyer:

    1) "Our capacity is limited." So true, so true.

    2) Their accommodation of "Mizrachi" diets. (Mizrachi is Hebrew for "religious Zionist")

    3) Their support for Middle Eastern children. Are they talking about the ones outfitted in machine guns and suicide belts, watching Farfur, the ratlike Palestinian version of Mickey Mouse?

    Love it!

     
  • At 7:23 PM, Blogger Taru said…

    I recently came accross your blog and have been reading along. I thought I would leave my first comment. I dont know what to say except that I have enjoyed reading. Nice blog. I will keep visiting this blog very often.


    Joannah

    http://easypowerpaint.com

     
  • At 10:41 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said…

    Dude - you're getting spammed again. It's high time to implement the extra security device utilized with the manual entry function of a "key word."

    That was a mouthful.

    --M. Malassi

     
  • At 9:49 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said…

    I think a handful of us should join them at this seder, and break out into a cry "Next year in Mizraiim!!!!!"


    Would you like that, Harris????

     
  • At 9:51 AM, Blogger Matt Kelley said…

    I'm still curious about what makes them anti-Semitic other than the fact that they try to give voice to an oppressed group. Are all Christians ant-Semitic or just the ones who don't agree with you on every single issue?

     
  • At 10:05 AM, Blogger The back of the hill said…

    Matt Kelley,

    Passover is absolutely unsuitable for that purpose. Would you take Easter and use it to speak out against the very fundaments of the Christian tradition?

    Passover is the primary narrative of Jewish nationhood. One of the key themes is the return to the land, both by the wandering tribe in the desert, as well as their descendants through the ages. Passover is about a journey, the end result of which is a land and a nation, Jewishness VERSUS the 'nations'. It is about becoming a nation. The land of Israel plays a central role in Passover, it can NOT be papered over without gutting the event.

    "Next year in Jerusalem" - that does not mean a postponement, that is an oath.

    And then holding this travesty on the wrong day, on Good Friday even (long associated with murdering Jews in a paroxysm of Christian anti-Semitic fervor), in a church (and remember, Jews were frequently either excoriated from the pulpit, OR forced by Christian authorities to attend church at least once a year to be harangued), and without food that is kosher le peysach - that is the moral equivalent of the Aryan Nations having a thanksgiving celebration on the anniversary of the shooting of Martin Luther King. Perhaps even with fried chicken and watermelon - because somehow that seemed 'appropriate'.

    I cannot fathom, by the way, the concept behind Jews celebrating in a church on what is arguably one of the saddest days in the Christian calendar - that too seems absolutely wrong. Boneheaded, even.

     
  • At 10:23 AM, Blogger The back of the hill said…

    Are all Christians ant-Semitic or just the ones who don't agree with you on every single issue?

    Question: do all Christians obsess over Israel and apply a double-standard? Or is obsessing over Israel and holding Israel singularly responsible for all that is wrong in the Middle-East actually SEPARATE from Christianity?

    I would argue that while there is provable an anti-Semitic strain of long-standing in Christianity, it is not a fundamental part of Christianity. Christian minhag, rather than Christian halacha.

    The tendency that says that Israel can do no wrong is in some ways the equivalent of the assertion that Israel can do no right, though the first is far more positive than the latter. But both are based on praeconception, bias, and an inability to consider modern Israel as another country, one of many, and the natural expression of Jewish nationhood.

    Are all Christians ant-Semitic or just the ones who don't agree with you on every single issue?

    Heh heh heh. Any sect that does NOT use the Psalter of Petrus Datheen OR the Psalter of Marnix van Sint Aldegonde, is probably degenerate and deviant, and almost certainly heathen. And may very well be perverts and anti-Semites. And the less said about American Presbyterians, OR Ledeboerians, the better. :-DDDDDDDD

     
  • At 11:47 AM, Blogger GRANT!PATEL! said…

    Petrus Datheen, Marniv van St, Aldegonde, Ledeboerians? Gibbering in a severe Dutch Calvinist manner will get you precisely nowhere! Have you considered Parsiism as the thinking man's alternative to Christianity?

    Same Manichean Gnosticism, without the fundamentalism and fatalism.


    ---Grant Patel

     
  • At 11:48 AM, Blogger GRANT!PATEL! said…

    Or in any case, less of a history of gibbering like maniacs.


    ---Grant Patel

     
  • At 11:48 AM, Blogger GRANT!PATEL! said…

    And far less likely to indulge in cultural relativism, too.


    ---Grant Patel

     
  • At 12:33 PM, Blogger middle aged mama said…

    someone please explain to me how I "hate Jews" when I'm Jewish myself, once aspired to being a rabbi (the rabbis represented scholarship and intelligence to me, far more than my elementary school teachders did or could) and, like some Orthodox and other rabbis and their students and families, have serious questions about Zionism and the State of Israel? I love being Jewish. I love the idea of a traditional ritual and fesast of liberation. I don;t share your political views nor do I expect you to share mine...but that doesn't make me a "Jew hater." maybe mind your own business and let those who choose alternative forms of worship or celebration mind theirs. we don't sotrm your events;it seems this is a veiled invitation for interference at a Seder with politics you don't share.

     
  • At 12:33 PM, Blogger middle aged mama said…

    someone please explain to me how I "hate Jews" when I'm Jewish myself, once aspired to being a rabbi (the rabbis represented scholarship and intelligence to me, far more than my elementary school teachders did or could) and, like some Orthodox and other rabbis and their students and families, have serious questions about Zionism and the State of Israel? I love being Jewish. I love the idea of a traditional ritual and fesast of liberation. I don;t share your political views nor do I expect you to share mine...but that doesn't make me a "Jew hater." maybe mind your own business and let those who choose alternative forms of worship or celebration mind theirs. we don't sotrm your events;it seems this is a veiled invitation for interference at a Seder with politics you don't share.

     
  • At 3:34 PM, Blogger The back of the hill said…

    someone please explain to me how I "hate Jews" when I'm Jewish myself,
    One can be a self-hater. Surely you've run across the concept before? And it isn't just Jews, you know.

    the rabbis represented scholarship and intelligence to me, far more than my elementary school teachders did or could
    That isn't at all unusual.

    have serious questions about Zionism and the State of Israel
    Everything can be questioned. But Israel no more than any other state or government. And Peysach is not the right time for that.

    I love the idea of a traditional ritual and feast of liberation.
    So do I - that is why I am repulsed by it being hijacked for an anti-israel and profoundly anti-jewish message, in part by a church, and in part by a group with a profoundly anti-Semitic trackrecord (MECA). And did I already mention that as well as the venue, the choice of day was inappropriate?
    There is absolutely NOTHING traditional about holding an anti-Israel seder on Good Friday in a Church with non-kosher food. That is not a feast of liberation, that is a muddle and a travesty.

    maybe mind your own business And you are here why? Do I note a note of disapproval over my disapproval of your festival of disapproval?
    Well, freedom of speech, I guess, means freedom of disapproval... and I choose to reject your disapproval.

    we don't storm your events Actually, you do. It was the Anti-Zionist Jews throwing this seder who last year stormed and occupied the JCRC on the sixtieth anniversary.

    it seems this is a veiled invitation for interference Good heavens no - it is a blatant invitation for disapproval. But not interference. I would not be caught dead anywhere near that ludicrous excuse for a seder, and I do not advise anyone else to go there either. I do not take part in degenerate rituals. Now, if it were a real seder...

     
  • At 3:36 PM, Blogger The back of the hill said…

    I love the idea of a traditional ritual and feast of liberation.


    But the actuality does not meet your approval? Is that why you laud this non-traditional event at which Jewish liberation will play second-fiddle to rhetoric and ideology?

    How sad.

     
  • At 3:37 PM, Blogger The back of the hill said…

    Participation in such a 'seder' more than most other options qualifies as poresh min ha tzibbur.

     
  • At 9:10 AM, Blogger Dusty said…

    "we don't storm your events"

    Oh, yes you do, sweetheart, yes you do.
    Don't pretend you don't know what I'm talking about.
    Ask Perry, Barbara, Sara, Amy/Ari Lev, Libby, Daniel/Morgan, Harris, Micha.....

    If you set the rules of engagement, you need to face the consequences of your actions.
    You think its acceptable to disrupt events you don't agree with, you need to learn to deal with the logical results.
    Its paying the piper, and yes, its that simple.


    But imagine how you'll be able to milk it for all its worth- you can sit there and lick your wounds and talk about how victimized you are. Try this "Poor, poor pitiful me! Oh, those horrid, horrid Zionists!". Feel better now?

    To me, this direct action is perfectly appropriate for the Passover story. After all, it was Pharaoh himself that brought the plagues onto Egypt.

    Choices have consequences, sister. Deal with it

     
  • At 10:05 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said…

    ATBOTH, and friends.

    Just something to consider:

    We are the good guys. Thats means we stand for something important- we represent something universal- something good and true. We stand for Israel, and what we do reflects the Jewish people as a whole. Remember that we are better than they are. They stand for hate and death; we stand for Hayyim v'Shalom-- for life and for peace.

    The group sponsoring Fridays event is irrelevant and they know it. Remember the words of Mattisyahu: "From the forest itself comes the handle for the axe". When we decided not to oppose their "boycott Israel" tables, we had no idea how our well our decision would play out. So look what happened at the Berkeley Bowl: The Japanese owner of the Bowl was so angered by their actions, he set up 3 end of aisle displays of Israeli products!

    We need to remember,in the words of Albus Dumbledore, "when the times comes to make a choice between what is right and what is easy" , we need to chose the higher ground- we stand for something better than they do, and we should NEVER, ever stoop to their level.

    Just my opinion- do with it as you will.

     
  • At 12:04 PM, Blogger GRANT!PATEL! said…

    Does something so irreligious as a Jew-hating ritual of disapproval held at a church actually qualify as 'religion'?

    Or is that really a form of hate-speech?


    ---Grant Preachingtothequeer

     
  • At 12:06 PM, Blogger GRANT!PATEL! said…

    no one turned away for lack of funds

    But no rabbis or real jews will be welcomed.



    ---Grant Rabidrabbit

     
  • At 12:09 PM, Blogger GRANT!PATEL! said…

    Participating in a non-Jewish semi-religious experience in a church - does this not say 'deliberate rejection of Jewish heritage and context'?

    Wouldn't even being there put one decisively on the side of the anti-Jews?

    Betcha that they will alos mention Allah and Muhammad (excoriation be upon him). They can't help it, they so enjoy heresy and rejecting everything of their parents.


    It's a contemporary American neurosis.



    ---Grant AshamedthatIhavenoJewishnesstobeashamedof

     
  • At 12:10 PM, Blogger GRANT!PATEL! said…

    What nuts!


    ---Grant Sanerthanthatlotbyawidemargin

     
  • At 12:46 PM, Blogger middle aged mama said…

    hi Dusty. I can;t speak for any of the people you name, or for anyone who will be attending or organizing the Friday event that you , since you like the word, excoriate.

    but plase hold off on the "yews you do sweetheart: business (and I would strongly recommend saving words like "sweetheart" for people for whom you feel genuine affection.)

    no one has EVER seen me interrupting anyone else's religious observance. not a Chbad House Seder, not a church service, nothing. I speak up for the rights of those who do not agree with you to hold whatever kind of event, soiritual or secular, they wish. for what it;s worht, I'm not even going to be near there; I actually have other Passoiver plans for Friday, of which you may or may not approve and frankl;y I don;t much care what you think about my own repationship to Jewish identity.

    but I do object, intellectually and affectively, to anyone here deciding that they know what I do in my rather limited free time. I have a job, a family, mundane chores to keep these going, friends, aging parents who ned my occasional ministrations, and enough to do not to be bothered with disrupting your events, whatever they may be.

    I'm just telling you since you seem to think you know the eharts of everyone else - I don;t "hate Jews" nor do many of the others speaking. since you mentioned MECA as "anti-Semitic" you do know that she is Jewish and her parents were ZIonist? and that many people are quite prod of their Jewish odentity but have qrrived at very differnt conclusions than yours based on their own stuudy and moral convictions?

    as one friend of mine likes to say, "there may be a range of acceptable opinions on a given topic."

    I tryb to live and let live.

    you might try it too. I believe there is precedent for this in Jewish tradition, but I'll leave it to you to find it.

    enjoy your own Seder and leave othres to enjoy theirs. I won;t be there to bother you, but it sure seems some of you ar bothering yourselves unnecessarily with people who don;t share your opinions and perspective.

     
  • At 1:30 PM, Blogger The back of the hill said…

    but plase hold off on the "yews you do sweetheart: business (and I would strongly recommend saving words like "sweetheart" for people for whom you feel genuine affection.)

    Sorry, sweetheart.

    no one has EVER seen me interrupting anyone else's religious observance. not a Chbad House Seder, not a church service, nothing.

    An anti-Israel seder in a Christian church on the wrong day (Good Friday, yet!) is not a religious service, it's a hate-ritual.

    I speak up for the rights of those who do not agree with you to hold whatever kind of event, soiritual or secular, they wish.

    And likewise, this blogger also supports that right. That does not mean that I approve, nor that I need to keep silent about that disapproval. I am appalled at the sheer effrontery of the time, place, and pretense. It's disgusting.

     
  • At 1:31 PM, Blogger The back of the hill said…

    for what it;s worht, I'm not even going to be near there;

    Commendable! Kol hakavod!


    I actually have other Passoiver plans for Friday, of which you may or may not approve

    Splendid - chag sameach and have a good chol hamoed


    and frankl;y I don;t much care what you think about my own repationship to Jewish identity.

    Kol Yisroel achim.

     
  • At 1:31 PM, Blogger The back of the hill said…

    but I do object, intellectually and affectively, to anyone here deciding that they know what I do in my rather limited free time.

    There's free time, and then there's Jewish time. No one objects to anyone does in their free time, but if it includes an anti-Zionist seder in a Christian church, it by no means qualifies as Jewish time. Calling it such is a travesty.


    I have a job, a family, mundane chores to keep these going, friends, aging parents who ned my occasional ministrations,

    So do we, sweetheart, so do we.


    and enough to do not to be bothered with disrupting your events, whatever they may be.

    Shouting at lectures by known Zionists, or occupying the JCRC with a loud and belligerent protest during sixtieth anniversary celebrations last year, trying to storm the consulate on several occasions, plus threats and violence at demonstrations - these are not disruptions? You should really find out what your friends are doing, sweetheart.

     
  • At 1:33 PM, Blogger The back of the hill said…

    since you mentioned MECA as "anti-Semitic" you do know that she is Jewish and her parents were ZIonist?

    Yes, we do know that. She's a classic self-hater and moralistic noodge. Besides being a bothersome meddler and know-it-all. There's not a shred of ahavas-yisroel in her. And yes, MECA is anti-Semitic. Besides being obviously anti-American (though that in itself is a necessary part of the American discourse, so I shan't excoriate it).


    and that many people are quite prod of their Jewish odentity but have qrrived at very differnt conclusions than yours based on their own stuudy and moral convictions?

    They are proud to be ashamed to be Jewish. And I discount their study and moral convictions - I doubt that they studied, I despise their morals. Nu?


    as one friend of mine likes to say, "there may be a range of acceptable opinions on a given topic."

    The world is not flat. No range of acceptable opinions possible.
    I reject such ridiculous relativism.

     
  • At 1:33 PM, Blogger The back of the hill said…

    I believe there is precedent for this in Jewish tradition, but I'll leave it to you to find it.
    That explains why the pro-Palestine crowd always screams their hatred outside the consulate - they're not Jewish! Why didn't we realize that? Tssk, tssk.

    enjoy your own Seder and leave othres to enjoy theirs.
    Chag sameach.

    I won;t be there to bother you
    Again, that is utterly commendable.

     
  • At 1:39 PM, Blogger The back of the hill said…

    but it sure seems some of you ar bothering yourselves unnecessarily with people who don;t share your opinions and perspective.

    We won't be at that church either - we're just noting their hosting of an anti-Israel pro-Palestinian seder with a known bunch of haters, for the record.

    And we aren't bothering ourselves, nor is the attention unnecessary - these are the same people who have laboured to damage Israel's cause, and have by their actions and rhetoric encouraged anti-Semites and empowered them. We've seen them in demos and at protests, heard their statements, and been present at many if not most events that they have befouled.

    Actually, I'm just blogging about it because I enjoy pissing-off the people on the other side. I've observed them often enough, and heard their hate regularly enough, that I find them clinically fascinating. Such odd beasts - so wrong, so demented, so utterly and extraordinarily evil.

     
  • At 2:44 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said…

    Re: MECA. Charity navigator awarded them one star-the lowest rating- because 65% percent to their money raised went to salaries and administrative costs.
    Contrast that with Feed the Children- 89 percent of their funding is for their programs.

    Remember that when you are looking for a non-profit to donate to. I don't feel the need to personally finance Barbara Lubins lifestyle

     
  • At 3:09 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said…

    Among the single most classically racist statements ever made (and, typically, by a self-identified "progressive") is,"so and so can't possibly be anti-semitic, they are of Jewish ancestry themselves." Just as if having Jewish genetics, (without a connection to the Jewish people, religion, culture, language etc)somehow makes it biologically impossible for that person to hold a particular bigotry. This same condescending "progressive" racism also views Palestinians as some sort of lesser beings that can't be expected to follow civilized conventions of behavior and so their senseless violence is both expected and excused. It is as racist to exculpate Palestinians from the natural consequences of their choices and actions, as the converse would be. The commonly used phrase, "the Arab street will explode in rage", reveals an astoundingly racist ideology and which smack's of Kipling's "White Man's Burden." Its not only classic European-style Jew hatred thinly cloaked as "anti-zionism" (apparently now, even including making comic fun of serious Jewish ritual. A treyfeh Seder, out of order chometzedikeh dinner mourning Jewish freedom, in a church etc is as offensive as Caucasians mincing about in blackface doing a Minstrel Show) that's crept into the progressive" movement, as ever, it was just "the canary in the coal mine.".

    Chag Pesaech Samach;

    R

     
  • At 11:35 PM, Blogger middle aged mama said…

    hey, I'm starting to think there IS ome mutual respect, if grudging respect, here so I'm willing to engage a little more. 9aw come on, you;re starting to like me a little because I'm not out o scream at you for one thing, right? and you sort of admire my levelheadedness even if you utterly reject some of my positions and conclusions...aw be honest...I'm not the rock-throwing anti-Zionist ranter you love to hate. frutratiing on the one hand, refreshing onthe other, huh?)

    okay, so one place I'll engage a little more, i said:
    ;as one friend of mine likes to say, "there may be a range of acceptable opinions on a given topic."'

    to whcih ou replied:

    "The world is not flat. No range of acceptable opinions possible.
    I reject such ridiculous relativism." error of logical type here, "earth is flat" is a statement ostensibly of fact, that can eithr be proven or disproven. "these people are jerks" or "that is wrong" ir "your behavior is morally offensive" - regardless of the politics of who says it or what they oppose - is an opinion, no something that can be proven or disproven though we all love to present evidence to support our point of view.

    my main reason for practicing nonviolence is relly that I might be wrong. it would be a pity, to put it mildly, to go offing people who don;t share my perspective. a real shame to do that and then find out i was mistaken.

    and this gloriously round warth is soemthing we all need to share with people who may not see ANYTHING, even the things dearest to us, our way.anyway, so hag sameach. all i wanted to do is affirm that the people who set your teeth onedge are humans with famileis and friends and desires and needs much like your/our own.

     
  • At 7:27 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said…

    Sadly, most Bay area non-zionists espouse, accept and tolerate violence, as shown by this video of the near lynching of a small group of Israel supporters in San Francisco.
    And as usual, there was no public condemnation of the attack from any of the groups that pretend to support "non-violence". Most just stood their and watched.

    http://www.zombietime.com/zomblog/?p=208

     
  • At 10:44 AM, Blogger The back of the hill said…

    I'm not out o scream at you

    Sometimes that clears the air marvelously. ;-DDD


    error of logical type here, "earth is flat" is a statement ostensibly of fact

    Israel exists: fact. Israel has a right to exist: fact. Israel has a right to exist with peace and security: fact. Israel has a right to insist on safe borders: fact. Sderot deserves a cessation of Gazan rocket attacks: fact. Israel has a right to have the acts of violence and provocation from the other side cease: fact. Israel in all of these regards is no different than any other nation: fact. Israel does NOT deserve to be held to a different standard than any other nation: fact.
    Israel IS held to entirely different standards by an international community that has obsessively focused on Israel while giving nearly every other nation it could have and should have condemned by any semblance of the same standards a free pass: fact.

    Yes?

    Jerusalem is a Jewish city (yes yes, three millennia ago the Jebusites would've disagreed - immaterial). Fact.

    That said, the actual borders have to be discussed, and what part of Jerusalem is of Judaic importance, what part of Islamic and Arab importance, and what provisions there will need to be so that all religions and ethnicities/subcultures get fair access and treatment, also need to be discussed.

    The Dome of the Rock is perhaps a good example. On the Har ha Beis, ergo in the centre of Judaic attention. Yet also a Muslim shrine. So there are two claims. Rather than drawing a line dividing it, or leveling the building itself (which, by the way, is a splendid example of Islamic architecture), both sides will probably have to agree to mutual access with certain limitations.

    Historically, Hevron is also a Jewish city. Yet today, from a demographic point of view, that is rather a moot point. Again, both sides will have to agree to mutual access with certain limitations.

    Now if the other side will choose to approach all such issues from a reasonable position, without the extremist rhetoric from virtually all Palestinian civil and religious leaders, and without the incessant attempts at mayhem, perhaps some progress can be made.
    Even admitting facts would go a long way towards inviting a reasonable negotiation over strong differences. Hard and forceful discussion will not always lead to agreements or compromise - but even that needs to be accepted a priori.

    Fact: the Palestinian side is dominated by people who justify terrorism, support terrorists, and have a direct organizational contribution to acts of terrorism. Fact: the Palestinian side is controlled by anti-Semites who regularly whip up their masses and encourage violence and sabotage. Fact: the Palestinians tend to assassinate both their rivals and their reasonable people. Fact: all of this prevents progress.


    my main reason for practicing nonviolence is relly that I might be wrong.

    Ah yes, the classic distinction between gnosticism and faith. Faith, being a belief in something while holding that proof is absent, implies, naturally, that the other side might be right (a possibility, NOT an equal probability).
    In a dispute between two sides, both sides have to hold to that paradigm. Several rockets a day towards Sderot rather suggests that the other side does not grasp the concept, don't you think?


    it would be a pity, to put it mildly, to go offing people who don;t share my perspective. a real shame to do that and then find out i was mistaken.

    I do wonder how the parents of Ehud Goldwasser and Eldad Regev feel about that. They probably agree wholeheartedly.


    and this gloriously round warth is soemthing we all need to share with people who may not see ANYTHING, even the things dearest to us, our way.anyway

    The Ku Klux Klan does not see anything my way, and I refuse to share ANYTHING with them. I will tolerate them provided they are far from my bed, and completely quiescent. Otherwise, there may be a Glock 19 with them at the wrong end.
    Same goes for any side that endangers me or those I wish to preserve. Al Qaeda, for instance, wishes to see us all dead. And I wish the same upon them, and everything associated with them, and all who would speak for them and support them in any way, and anyone who chooses similar tactics and ideologies.


    all i wanted to do is affirm that the people who set your teeth onedge are humans with famileis and friends and desires and needs much like your/our own.

    One of the rules I always try to hold by is that one must never lose sight of the other side's humanity. Despite their failure, in that regard, to do likewise.
    Having been called several things including pig and dog by many members of the other side, you will perhaps understand that I am disappointed in their observance of this principle. And also that, given the threats and violence at anti-Israel protests, that I am entirely unwilling to assume that there will be any reciprocity anytime soon.
    I am by nature non-violent. Yet I will admit a willingness to use violence, and that after so many years, a finely honed set of responses.

    And on a more graceful note: chag sameach.

     
  • At 12:29 PM, Blogger middle aged mama said…

    hey...shall I say "friend?'' as I've noted, there seems to be a certain grudging sort of mutual appreciation that almost constitutes friendship here.

    most of the "facts" you state are not facts at all; they are logically- but deductively-reached conclusions based on a few facts. you present a decent argument for some of them, but an alternative and possibly apposite as well as opposite viewpoint could be argued jus as cogently.

    it's a good debater's trick, and I admire it. (you are probably starting to get that I appreciate intelligent discourse, almost regardless of the motivations, politics, or conclusions of the person advancing it.) but saying "fact fact fact" doesn't make it a fact even if it;s an arguable conclusion.

    or as Abe Lincoln so ably put it, "if you call a tail a leg, how many legs does that give a dog? five, no, just because you call a tail a leg doesn't make it one."

    another error of tpe as I see it: the Ku Klux Klan really has very little to do with a group of funky anti-Zionists holding an anti-Zionist Seder. it's a mistake to put them all as bubbles of "people who hate the Jews: even if they are connected that way as you see it. one group is armed and historically linked to a horrible type of vigilantism; one is a a bunch of people who are generally unarmed, and not given tp not going around beating up people for belonging to an ethnic group other than their own.

    and the "self-hating jew" line has been around for a WAy long time. being critical of a nation state founded on one;s wn 9or anyone else's) etnicity does not mean one hates oneself.

    I do question whether the State of Israel really is what the Seder is about. some ways the name "israel" for a nation-state is a bit confusion, because "amo Yisrael" has always referred to a large cultural group, with a number of subgroups 9like any of the major religions)and not to "Eretz Yisrael." the two uses of the same proper noun get confusing., or they can. they are not at all the same thing.

    and i have known Orthodox rabbis, in the US and in England (probably other places as well; that;s just where I've lived among the Jewish community, though I've lived and traveled in other countries in Europe and the Americas) who believe sincerely that the State of Israel is NOT the Tzion promised by scripture, as the return to Tzion was to be by the hand of G*d and not by military might. it;s not just a left wing agnostic-to-atheist phenomenon, and there are Jewish congregations within which the whole issue of he State of Israel has been deeply divisive.

    when my child was named as a baby before the congregation, and was told. "your name in Israel will be known as Leah Hannah". there was, or should have been, no confusion about what "Israel" meant in this context....it means among the Jewish people worldwide.

    "nefesh yehudi" manifests in many ways.

    as for the roots of Pesach; there is almost a universal theme to these celebrations and rituals.spring festivals are/were almost ubiquitous throughout the parts of the world that are temperate zone, and there were many traditions having o do with discarding old leavening in favor of starting a new batch, celebrating the lambs, eggs,m and spring vegetables, and cleaning one's house of all the old winter garbage.

    I'm not so sure any of us are "by nature nonviolent" to be honest - learning that force is not an acceptable way to get what you want is a lifetime learning task, and some get closer to realizing this than others.. if you have raised children, you will know what i mean, both in terms of what we try to encourage in our children and how we ourselves respond to pressures and frustration.

    I guess i;m rather the opposite of what you say about yourself - if i went around offing everyone who pissed me off, there would be a large trail of dead bodies. I used to joke that i believed in a God who made me relatively small to keep me nonviolent. over the years, with a strong commitment to nonviolence and recognizing the humanity of others, I've learned to temper it, quite literally.

    I've been at some of the demonstrations of which ou speak, and seen little to support your contention that most anti-Israel progressives are ready to use violence. I like your honest admission tat your "willingness to use violence" is real (no pun on "Israel" intended there, BTW)and "finely honed" - i'm not sure in what way. I ope I never have to find out; not that i think you would ever present a threat to me personally, as it seems we can discourse 9at least through electronic text) like two reasonable human beings). i'd like to think, since as I say I am rather coming to like you at least with a couple computers and miles/kilometers between us, that the hand that seriously wounds or kills some rowdy and irritating protestor is not yours.



    now i'll be honest; sometimes the edginess and sheer lack of clear thought by people who are my progressive allies is a real embarrassment to me, too, and I would imagine to the intelligent and thoughtful within movement they seek to join or, sadly, "represent' at times.

    I jsut think it;s a long leap, and a blurring of ategories and levels of logical type as I say, to equate, say, Al Qaeda with a bunch of fairly mottley narchists holding what may seem liek a perversion of the idea of a Seder at a rented chirch hall on Friday night.

    maybe the Humanistic Seders that elminate all references to g*d or anythign "supernatural" are equally silly and affrontie to you; i don;t know. maybe the Orthodox rabbis who have no patience with the State of israel because they do not believe it was brought about by G*d are misguided.

    but that's life, really, filled with people with whom we have vehement, but with any grace not violent, philosophical and practical disagreements.

    there are SOME of us, of various ideological persuasions,. who can talk across ideoological boundaries, for which i am extremely grateful. maybe in what is almost surely the second half of life, that is the gift I have to bring to the table(I was a lot more emotional and easily frustrated when younger.)

    finally, I'm going to address that 'self hating Jew" business because it;s used generally when someone Jewish wants to attack the beliefs or practices of someone else who considers herself, or himself, Jewish. yes, I have met people who ahte themselves for being jewish, being fat, working in a profession about which they have mixed or guilty feelings,...come to think of it, a former boyfiend who emt all three of those self-abnegation criteria comes to mind. he also had the unfortunate habit of taking it out on me, and it was years before i had enough self-respect to say that i wasn't going to waste another 15 minutes of my life someone disrespectful and verbally abusive.

    the two issues that seem most evocative of "self-hating Jew' seem to be the State of Israel and religious/ritual circumcision. (there was even an old episode of LA Law, oh maybe 15 years or more ago, that used this exact phrase.


    it;s not self-hatred, or even hatred of other Jews, to hold an nonconventional or minority point of view. and it's not evil.

    I can also equate the no-circ and the rethink-Zionism movements in the aspect that in each case, BOTH sides get unnecessarily shrill .
    s I say, respectful dialogue is an art that oo few ractice.for me, as part of a discursive culture such as the jewish people represent, it;s sad to see jews on either side of any debate, sinking into name-calling and other knee-jerk responses.
    this letter is plenty long enough already. thank you for reading it, and may our days be blessed, whether or not we agree on anything. (and I strongly suspect we do...)

     
  • At 5:21 PM, Blogger The back of the hill said…

    or as Abe Lincoln so ably put it, "if you call a tail a leg, how many legs does that give a dog? five, no, just because you call a tail a leg doesn't make it one."

    For the purpose of this conversation, please take the word 'tail' to be the same as the word 'leg'. ;-DDD


    another error of tpe as I see it: the Ku Klux Klan really has very little to do with a group of funky anti-Zionists holding an anti-Zionist Seder. it's a mistake to put them all as bubbles of "people who hate the Jews: even if they are connected that way as you see it. one group is armed and historically linked to a horrible type of vigilantism; one is a a bunch of people who are generally unarmed, and not given tp not going around beating up people for belonging to an ethnic group other than their own.

    Yet that second group also contains elements that do actually arm those who would harm Jews, both with material aid, and rhetorical aid. Convoys to Gaza are support for Hamas, anti-Israel actions are both cover for and empowerment of Israel-haters and anti-Semites. Enabling those who actively seek the destruction of the Jewish state is by no means harmless.

     
  • At 5:21 PM, Blogger The back of the hill said…

    and the "self-hating jew" line has been around for a WAy long time. being critical of a nation state founded on one;s wn 9or anyone else's) etnicity does not mean one hates oneself.

    That the phrase has been around for a long time does not invalidate it. Indeed, being critical of that nation state does not mean one hates oneself, but being hyper-critical of that nation state, while NOT being critical of the Arab or Palestinian side, nor admitting that there is more to Israel than just that of which one disapproves, strongly suggests that the operative mentality is anti-Semitic (hence, in the case of Jews, self-hating). That many “Jews” who are so critical of Israel REFUSE to condemn any violence or rhetoric from the Arab / Palestinian side for all intents and purposes confirms it.

     
  • At 5:22 PM, Blogger The back of the hill said…

    I do question whether the State of Israel really is what the Seder is about. some ways the name "israel" for a nation-state is a bit confusion, because "amo Yisrael" has always referred to a large cultural group, with a number of subgroups 9like any of the major religions)and not to "Eretz Yisrael." the two uses of the same proper noun get confusing., or they can. they are not at all the same thing.

    Without denying the broader definition of ‘Israel’, it can NOT be said that the land is not what the Seder is about. The land is mentioned so many times, as a concluding of the journey and as a desired and desirable end, and as the result promised to Abraham and Yakov (Israel), that the only way to remove the conclusion that Jews belong in the land of Israel is to remove any mention of Israel and denature the Seder itself. The Bnei Israel belong in Eretz Israel.

     
  • At 5:22 PM, Blogger The back of the hill said…

    and i have known Orthodox rabbis, in the US and in England (probably other places as well; that;s just where I've lived among the Jewish community, though I've lived and traveled in other countries in Europe and the Americas) who believe sincerely that the State of Israel is NOT the Tzion promised by scripture, as the return to Tzion was to be by the hand of G*d and not by military might. it;s not just a left wing agnostic-to-atheist phenomenon, and there are Jewish congregations within which the whole issue of he State of Israel has been deeply divisive.

    They can all keep waiting for Moshiach if they choose. Sometimes a much more pro-active approach is necessary. And whatever those Orthodox Rabbis you mention believe is immaterial – the state exists, it is here now, and it is home to more Jews than any other country on earth.
    The destruction of Israel promised by Fatah, Hamas, Hezbollah, Islamic Jihad, the various European socialist parties, ISM, and International Answer would be the destruction of more Jews than the Europeans killed in their last spasm of degeneracy. Working toward that end, in any way, has to count as odious and evil.

     
  • At 5:23 PM, Blogger The back of the hill said…

    as for the roots of Pesach; there is almost a universal theme to these celebrations and rituals.spring festivals are/were almost ubiquitous throughout the parts of the world that are temperate zone, and there were many traditions having o do with discarding old leavening in favor of starting a new batch, celebrating the lambs, eggs,m and spring vegetables, and cleaning one's house of all the old winter garbage.

    This is indeed probably more than just coincidence. But what makes this particular spring ritual ‘Peysach’ are the themes of transformation - accepting certain conditions - and becoming a separate nation, within a very specific narrative framework that both gives and extends meaning.
    That framing narrative states that they did not just leave Egypt, they went to the land that was theirs. En route, they accepted certain conditions, and underwent certain changes. And at the end of the journey they entered the land. It may be just narrative – but is a paradigm of “nation becoming” that stands as the fundament for all subsequent Jewish history. Without Passover, there are no Jews. Remove from Passover what makes it specifically Jewish, and there is no Passover. Without the land as a termination of the journey, the journey is pointless. They left the land to sojourn in Mitzraim, and when they were more strangers in Egypt than they had ever been, they returned to their land, discarding their ‘Egyptianness’, as if it were a faded garment, along the way.

     
  • At 5:25 PM, Blogger The back of the hill said…

    I like your honest admission tat your "willingness to use violence" is real (no pun on "Israel" intended there, BTW)and "finely honed" - i'm not sure in what way.

    So far, it has been entirely defensive. B’ezras Hashem it will remain so. There are several on our side who at all costs should remain non-combatants: women, children, elderly people. There are several on the other side who do not grasp this crucial concept: anarchists, ANSWERistas, and a large number of Arab-American youths.
    This explains why I and no one I know has been arrested, but several members of the other side have ended up in handcuffs over the years.


    I ope I never have to find out; not that i think you would ever present a threat to me personally, as it seems we can discourse 9at least through electronic text) like two reasonable human beings). i'd like to think, since as I say I am rather coming to like you at least with a couple computers and miles/kilometers between us, that the hand that seriously wounds or kills some rowdy and irritating protestor is not yours.

    Ah, time for three apposite quotes!
    Jis-se Allah rakh-he, us-se kaun chakke?” (‘those whom G-d protects, who can touch these?).
    Tang amad, ba-jang amad” (‘when one is forced, one goes to battle’).
    Cu kar az hama hilate dar guzasht, halal ast burden ba Shamshir dast” (‘when all ways and means have been exhausted, then it is right to draw the sword’).

    All three sayings are from the Sikh environment, all three reflect the ethos current during the centuries when that community was constantly defending its right to exist against the persecutions and pogroms of the Muslim rulers. The first is in Urdu, the last two are Persian (and the third is from the poetry of Guru Gobind Singh, from the Zafar Nama).

     
  • At 5:25 PM, Blogger The back of the hill said…

    now i'll be honest; sometimes the edginess and sheer lack of clear thought by people who are my progressive allies is a real embarrassment to me, too, and I would imagine to the intelligent and thoughtful within movement they seek to join or, sadly, "represent' at times.

    There are both fools and good people on either side.


    I jsut think it;s a long leap, and a blurring of ategories and levels of logical type as I say, to equate, say, Al Qaeda with a bunch of fairly mottley narchists holding what may seem liek a perversion of the idea of a Seder at a rented chirch hall on Friday night.

    I will nevertheless maintain that holding such a seder, on that day, and in that place, is twixt useful idiocy and absolute evil. Between good-intention wrong execution, and deliberate, perverse, knowing, and intentional wrongness.
    Which extreme the attendees represent, however, is not so clear.


    maybe the Humanistic Seders that elminate all references to g*d or anythign "supernatural" are equally silly and affrontie to you; i don;t know. maybe the Orthodox rabbis who have no patience with the State of israel because they do not believe it was brought about by G*d are misguided.

    There is no reason why a seder-mentality needs to be a religious mentality. But a SEDER cannot do without the multiple mention of the deity.
    And a lack of patience is not a problem – a lack of acceptance of established fact is.

     
  • At 5:26 PM, Blogger The back of the hill said…

    but that's life, really, filled with people with whom we have vehement, but with any grace not violent, philosophical and practical disagreements.

    Wrong and evil are different. One can be wrong, without being evil. One can disagree, without necessarily being wrong. Shishim panim le Torah.


    there are SOME of us, of various ideological persuasions,. who can talk across ideoological boundaries, for which i am extremely grateful. maybe in what is almost surely the second half of life, that is the gift I have to bring to the table(I was a lot more emotional and easily frustrated when younger.)

    And, of course, without different points of view there is no discussion. Without discussion there is no understanding.
    I am far too talkative to want total agreement, and would much rather have a shouting match peppered with ‘but, no, what about, never-the-less, on the other hand’, than any amount of ‘yes, you are so right’.

     
  • At 5:26 PM, Blogger The back of the hill said…

    it;s not self-hatred, or even hatred of other Jews, to hold an nonconventional or minority point of view. and it's not evil.

    Doing so is actually the quintessence of being Jewish. But it has to be more than merely an instinctive reaction, an automatic emotional response.


    I can also equate the no-circ and the rethink-Zionism movements in the aspect that in each case, BOTH sides get unnecessarily shrill
    s I say, respectful dialogue is an art that oo few ractice.for me, as part of a discursive culture such as the jewish people represent, it;s sad to see jews on either side of any debate, sinking into name-calling and other knee-jerk responses. .


    And oddly, I have often had better exchanges with other-thinking Jews at these public confrontations than with the Anarchist and Arab teenagers and college kids – they usually make no bones about wanting me dead and my family slaughtered.


    this letter is plenty long enough already. thank you for reading it, and may our days be blessed, whether or not we agree on anything. (and I strongly suspect we do...)

    There probably is indeed a fair amount we can agree on.
    Shalom, and shavua tov.

     
  • At 5:34 PM, Blogger The back of the hill said…

    if i went around offing everyone who pissed me off, there would be a large trail of dead bodies

    See, that’s what concrete shoes, chains, and leaden weights in gunny sacks are fo……….., errrrrm, I mean, me too!!!


    I've been at some of the demonstrations of which ou speak, and seen little to support your contention that most anti-Israel progressives are ready to use violence.

    I did not contend that it is most such people – it is almost always a lesser percentage. I note that there is a significant element among the anti-Israel crowd (and they are by no means ‘progressive’) that does not hesitate to be violent when opportunity presents itself.
    I will also say that these elements are given cover, at times deliberately, by activists and organizations such as JVP, ISM, Women in Black, and ANSWER, et al.
    When the nice white middle-aged people leave, the violent element has no-one to babysit them. Which accounts for the punching, shoving, and spitting. When the vile element dominates, as at some demonstrations, the rough behaviour and insulting language come out of the box earlier, as do the Arabic slogans (see elsewhere in this blog for translations and interpretations of Jew-hating slogans in Arabic).

    Again, there is nothing progressive about desiring the end of the state of Israel, and its replacement with a Muslim majority state and a legalized denial of Jewish nationalism within the land that has always been theirs.
    Whether or not there is any validity to Palestinian nationalism, however, is dependent upon the Palestinians themselves.
    A political movement that hijacks planes, blows up buses and restaurants, chucks wheelchair-bound cripples into the ocean, sets fire to houses of worship, infiltrates civilian areas to commit mass-murder, teaches its children libels and lies about blood-drinking, engages in wholesale denialism of historic fact, and dehumanizes the other side – such a movement has NO validity, and a tribe that identifies with such a movement puts itself and its aspirations beyond the pale.
    Please imagine how flabberghasted I am to find such a movement not only NOT condemned but actually praised and supported by the self-called progressive people of the Bay Area, their violence and sadism excused and defended, the crimes of their leaders and heroes actually lauded. Anyone who praises Hamas or Hezbollah does not deserve a voice and should not be treated as human. Even if they are the ideological stalwarts of International ANSWER, ISM, BAWIB, SJP, MECA, and JVP.

     
  • At 5:35 PM, Blogger The back of the hill said…

    Please note: the comment immediately above is, of course, out of sequence. The omission of one word necessitated removal, correction, reposting.

     
  • At 5:49 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said…

    " sometimes the edginess and sheer lack of clear thought by people who are my progressive allies is a real embarrassment to me, too"


    The comments section seems to have become a party of two, but I'll intercede, briefly.
    I am (I hate this phrase) a "progressive activist". I'm also a Zionist. I support Israel because Israel shares my values- equal rights for women, queers, minorities, freedom of speech, freedom of press- you've heard all this already.
    During my involvement with the Bay area activist community, I've meet many people who have deserted their affinity groups because of the blatant arrogant anti-Semitism they have seen.
    I'm thinking in particular of Shirley- a former candidate for State Senator for the Peace and freedom party. I believe she received more votes than any other candidate in the history of the party in her election run.
    Shirley abandoned International ANSWER, as well as many of her "progressive" allies- because of the anti-Semitism she perceived as endemic in their movement. In her last months, she became a Zionist activist.
    Maybe its time for true progressives to purge the racists in their midst. many a zero tolerance policy would go along way in restoring your credability

    Lorelai La Bomba

     
  • At 6:30 PM, Blogger middle aged mama said…

    hi folks. glad topun not intended there either!0 that a guest can be quite well behaved, and should be, and I'm glad yo are engaging with me in an thoughtful way instead or eitehr calling names o showing me the door.

    sometiems, all of us, you get what you put in..duh.
    hear from both of you, and please be assured that there is no sarcasm or even facetiousness when I thank you for keeping the tne civil. I understand that I'm a "guest" here and I think I've demonstrated.

    getting back to logical types; I think Lincoln had it right; a tail is not a leg. you can call both types of structure "appendages' and be, somewhat, anatomically accurate, but functionally they serve entirely different purposes, and an animal who depends on each of his four legs to walk will have a problem if he geenralizes he expectations put on that"leg' that's really a tail.

    in terms of developmental anatomy they aren;t at all the same thing either; if you;ve studied vetrtebrate anatomy at all, you know that a tail is a continuation of the spine, and thus is made up of fertebrae. a leg is part of the appendicular skeleton, iterally an appendage rather than part of your backbone.

    if you looked at the bones to a tail and a leg, you;d ind little similarity.

    okay, i've belabored that point long enough.

    the people who attend ANSWER rallies are NOT your enemies in the way that the KKK is, take my word for it. if terry (I now him too) is ranting that e;d like to kill you, its only ranting. stupid for a smart guy, and as I said, embarrassing more to those who work alongside him than anything else.

    "purges" and the very idea of them scare the holoy crap out of me, and they sould be scary to anyone who has known history. maybe you;d fin m real mentor and late friend in the business of nonviolent resistance, David Dellinger,m just as offensive as the folks who old anti-Zionist Seders, i don;t know. but in the 1950s or early 1960s, when there was a similar type of pressure within civil rights groups to purge the Communists. uncle Dave gave te following sagely advice, lightly paraphrased: "the Communists should be treated just like everyone else; recognized for their contributions when they work, and challenged when they are talking nonsense."
    I'm not sure who the peace and freedom person to whm you refer is. I have some old ties to P anf F 9and the asinine boyfriend to whom I referred earlier as hating himself for several reasons including Jewish background, fat belly,and working as a lawyer) was once a P anf F candidate for US Senate.

    my own problem with Zionism has to do mostly with a problem I have with militarism, an i cn;t help seeing the modern State of Israel as being primarily a military state despite the civil freedoms that most of its citizens enjoy.

    I still think or gracious hst/moderaor is lumping too mnay concepts togetehr and blurring fact and interpretation 9that is, calling a tail an leg oir vice versa: does a dog have five Tails/ or three tails and two arms? my mother who loves dogs and tends to anthropmorphize once said to m dad: look, there;s a one-armed dog...it was a dog missing ne front leg.)

    to whit: it can be argued that the Seder DOES refer to the modern nation of Israel, but it can also be argued that i cannot. to say "YOU CAN'T SAY THAT! IT'S A DENIAL OF FACT!" is to insist that one;s own interpretation f what sketchy facts we have 9many question whether Joseph's prrgeny were really held as slaves in egypt and whether the Exodus ever happened in anything besides "mythological time and space)

    hey, I better get going here. I hope the conversation is somewhat enjoyable to ou. Ienjoy discourse, but i really don;t like a fight. and think i can tell the difference. I was graced with the option of getting out of am impending fight pretty swiftly, sicne i have very few other defensive fighting skills - well, I DID manage o old o a wou-be rapist on the beach in costa rica when I was 22 or so, but that involved staying calm and tem running lke hell as soon as I could.so, off to do errands, and see you all later...warmly, judith (yeah, I have a name...)

     
  • At 6:47 PM, Anonymous Ludwig J. Finnis said…

    “Culture is fundamentally a legal fiction,” says Baudrillard; however, according to Geoffrey, it is not so much culture that is fundamentally a legal fiction, but rather the failure, and subsequent rubicon, of culture. A number of constructions concerning capitalist deconstructivism exist. Thus, if Sontagist camp holds, we have to choose between Lyotardist narrative and the pretextual paradigm of narrative.

     
  • At 6:58 PM, Anonymous Remember Mumbai said…

    They were two Lubavitchers, a Bobover and a Satmerer, a woman about to make Aliya and a backpacker.

    A police doctor who examined their bodies remarked that the Jewish corpses showed signs of having been exceptionally savagely tortured before being killed.

     
  • At 7:44 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said…

    Re: "Israeli militarism"

    I object to all militarism. I object to Iranian militarism- they have the 8th largest army in the world, and they are months ago from a nuclear bomb.
    I also object to North Korean Militarism.
    Israel? At least they don't parade their war machines down their throughfares. At least their draft is universal- no exemptions for the elite or well connected. (except for the ultra Orthodox- that needs to change.)
    All Israel wants is peace, so they can stop spending so much money on the military

     
  • At 11:14 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said…

    We use the phrase "self-hating Jew" as "Court Jew" has fallen out of fashion, "Uncle Tom" is old fashioned, and "Oreo Cookie" is currently being used elsewhere.

    R

     
  • At 5:00 PM, Blogger middle aged mama said…

    name-calling, including "self-hating Jew" is not a sign of intelligent discourse. i;e already said, politely I believe, that I don;t think it;s accurate except in a few cases.

    getting over self-despising is a monumental task for almost anyone.

    disagreeing with someone over a nation state is NOT a sign of self-hate. it's a real US phenomenon, compared with most of Europe for example, to always look to the psychological over the social-structural...

    I'm very willing to dialogue about the issues as we each see them, but there's no reason to attempt to justify name-calling.

     
  • At 7:51 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said…

    Not about name calling, but many of us have made an interesting observation- the vast majority of the anti-Israel forces in the bay area are gender-varient.
    This isn't a judgement- its an observation- when there is a local political action and 6/8 of the folks that show up are queeer, you can't help but wonder how much of this is just about psychology and how much is about politics?

     
  • At 7:15 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said…

    Queer folk would find sanctuary in Israel but death elsewhere in the Middle East (outside Israel). The nutbars of QUIT think that Israel is oppressive but they'd be outright murdered in Gaza - and their murderers would sleep well that night too.

    QUIT = severe cognitive dissonance

     
  • At 1:46 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said…

    Follow up: The anti-Israel seder earned the nasty folk THOUSANDS , which will be used to pay the leagl expenses of the likes of Lily Haskell (Well known for her chants of "Zionists watch your back or we will throw you in the shaft", a thinly veiled threat referring to the death of activist Dan Kliman)
    Enablers of anti-Semitism?
    ATBOTH, you certainly called it.

     
  • At 3:38 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said…

    They are at it again this year- another "seder" in the Methodist church. Details upon request.
    Think little Robby Kanter will wear a Kippa?
    I somehow doubt it.
    Think little Robby Kanter does what a kippa is?
    I somehow doubt it.

     
  • At 1:20 PM, Anonymous Self-righteous Putzes said…

    2013:

    Get ready to puke.

    http://calendar.insidebayarea.com/oakland_ca/events/show/306336025-ijan-legacies-of-resistance-passover-seder

    The International Jewish Anti-Zionist Network invites you to join us for...
    Legacies of Resistance
    2013 Community Passover Seder Dinner
    Co-sponsored by Bay Area Women in Black
    Sunday, March 31st, 2013
    Doors open at 5:30pm, Program starts promptly at 6pm
    Lake Merritt United Methodist Church
    (1255 1st Ave at International Blvd, Oakland)
    Dinner will be served.
    $25 suggested donation ($15 - $50 sliding scale), no one turned away for lack of funds - to be on our guest list contact ijan.bayarea@gmail.com.
    This is a community event made possible by your support. Please contact ijan.bayarea@gmail.com if you are able to make food or volunteer.
    Funds raised will benefit IJAN and the Stop the JNF Campaign.
    Our capacity is limited, so please purchase your tickets early.
    All are welcome.
    Children are welcome at Seder.
    Event is wheelchair accessible.
    So that everyone may participate, please arrive fragrance-free.
    A note about food:
    Food served will be "Kosher-for-Passover Style" -- though it will not be strictly kosher. Additionally, remember that different cultural traditions observe Pesach differently. We will do our best to label everything and to accommodate for various restrictions and allergies.

     
  • At 1:31 PM, Blogger The back of the hill said…

    Thank you.

    I myself have no intention of going there, as I shall be celebrating on the correct dates, with normal people, instead of seeking the company of reshaim.

    Besides, I'm allergic to Methodists.

    May they be consigned to Gehinnom for all eternity.

     

Post a Comment

Links to this post:

Create a Link

<< Home

 
Newer›  ‹Older