For several days various anonymi have visited two recent posts, and left comments. These anonymi appear to be either two people, or two points-of-view; one of them is more-or-less a calm individual who seems to have an ability to perceive nuances, the other one comes across as a Malay-nationalist with an abiding hatred for America and Israel, though he (she?) does not actually express that in his (her?) comments. He (she?) merely replays the typical tropes that reflect a dislike of the West, a distaste for Jews coupled with a favouritism towards the side that employs Islamic extremists, and a gut-level support for the apartheid which marks the Malaysian state and its treatment of Chinese and Indians as well as the officially-sanctioned hatred towards Jews.
The two posts are:
http://atthebackofthehill.blogspot.com/2009/01/malaysia-racism-bigotry-and-boycott.html
And:
http://atthebackofthehill.blogspot.com/2009/01/malaysia-racism-bigotry-and-boycott.html
Now let us join a conversation already in progress........
Nuanced Anonymous writes:
The back of the Hill said :"Changes in attitudes have to come from both sides - without reciprocation, there is no inspiration"
The first to do a good deed will be the better one. What is going to be Mr Back of the Hill?
We've already made numerous overtures - the onus is now on you to reciprocate. And though we've been waiting for what seem like eons, we remain, as always, patient.
And we still wait.
Considerably Less Nuanced Anonymous writes:
Are you trying to say that you only like people which are subservient to you. And you hate Mahathir Mohamad because he dare to speak up issues that you refused to believe.
We like people with whom we are not in conflict and with whom we have open and constructive dialogue. We have no reason whatsoever to like people who scream "death to America" and "death to Israel" at government-approved pep-rallies. Especially not if they nevertheless seek to do business with us, and profit from their association with us.
Yes, we dislike those who dislike us.
It is clear that your grasp of history is one-sided and extremely biased. You support Mahathir Mohamad - a man who is notorious world-wide as a Jew-hater, a racist, and a bigot.
Here, we have rejected the ideology of George Wallace, and that type of hate has been marginalized in the United States and most of the Western World.
You, on the other hand, elected his equivalent, Dr. Mahathir Mohamad, to leadership of your country, and kept him, and his reprehensible points of view, in power for 22 years.
That racialist hate, and that dislike of other peoples, continues to live on in your country, and thrives among your people.
In that regard, you are true imitators of many of the modern Arab nations - societies marked by cronyism, repression of unapproved points of view, and support for terrorist organizations. What are the words screamed at your anti-American demonstrations? Hezbollah, Hamas, and Jihad.
I absolutely reject such typical and unquestioning Malay allegiance to pan-Islamist solidarity.
We are a self-critical society with a broad spectrum of political viewpoints; even statements which advocate the destruction of America and support the racist-ideology of Hamas have a public voice in our country.
You are a society that is scared of opinions that oppose your narrow and rigid loyalties to your own tribe and your own creed.
Remember, you are the people who have maintained the last remaining version of apartheid for over a generation. It is almost forty years since the racists riots instigated by UMNO operatives in 1969.
You are not qualified to discuss certain issues until you clean up your act.
First get rid of the Bumiputra policies and NEP, then we can talk.
Oh, and stop treating Chinese, Indians, and non-Muslims as dhimmis while you're at it; that, too, is a particular sore point. And well worthy of anger and dislike.
The day when the Malaysian government rejects the apartheid and institutionalized racism that they have enforced for forty years is the day that Malays will truly deserve our respect.
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35 comments:
Mr Back of the Hill:
"We have no reason whatsoever to like people who scream "death to America" and "death to Israel" at government-approved pep-rallies"
Have you spent sometime to study and reflect why they do that? Dont you think that they dont have anything else to do. Do you respect human life at all. Or you believe that 1 Jew life is equivalent to 100 non Jew.
Mr Back of the Hill:
"Especially not if they nevertheless seek to do business with us, and profit from their association with us"
Thats the problem Mr. You always think we are too eager to do business with the Americans and as if the Americans didnt get any profit and benefit from the interactions.
Olmert appologise on TV because of high number of civilian casualties in Gaza. But than can he bring back the dead Mr.. ..
Mr Back of the hill said "Mahathir Mohamad - a man who is notorious world-wide as a Jew-hater, a racist, and a bigot". But than has he kill a single Jew?
Your ex President Bush are responsible for the dead of thousands of Iraqis while looking for WMD. At the end of his presidency than only he admit it was an intelligence mistake. Can he bring back the dead Mr. ???
olmert apologizes fro civilian deaths. The Palestinians celebrate them and pass out candy.
One side glorifies LIFE.
One side glorifies DEATH.
I know what side I'm on
Anon --
You're on the side that glorifies death. That's all that's on your mind.
Anon Surfer #2
Have you spent sometime to study and reflect why they do that? Dont you think that they dont have anything else to do. Do you respect human life at all. Or you believe that 1 Jew life is equivalent to 100 non Jew.
I would advise you to reflect upon why they do that. Clearly they are not expressing love, respect, appreciation, friendship, or anything approaching a peaceful attitude towards either America or Israel.
By those sentiments, and by using those sentiments as justification and support for extremist acts against Americans and Israelis, they put themselves beyond our consideration. Bu those slogans, they set themselves apart and on an opposite side from us. There is no reason to make peace with such people, nor to consider their points of view. Effectively they declare themselves an enemy, and resolve themselves in favour of murder and bloodshed. No decent American or Israeli would want to support such people - all that is possible is increased distaste and further mistrust. Dislike, and disrespecting the point of view that voices such murderous sentiments are the only possible responses.
One Jewish or Israeli life is indeed worth more than a plurality of Jihadi lives. One of ours, for us, must naturally count for much more than any number of yours. Why should it be otherwise.
You already declare yourselves the enemy by wanting us dead. Why then should we consider your lives precious?
I reject the idea that your hatred is in any way either justified or justifiable. You hate. You express that hate. You would not hesitate to effect our death, were it in your power. There is absolutely no reason for our side to condone that. Until you stop wishing for our misfortune and deaths, you are the enemy. And you took the initiative to become that; you declared yourselves thus. You shout "death to America", or "death to Jews". You fund terrorist organizations. You scream your hatred on your streets.
I would rather my government consider my life, and that of my fellow Americans, infinitely precious, than that they prize the lives of any number of the people who want us dead. And I am glad that they do so. That is their job.
Thats the problem Mr. You always think we are too eager to do business with the Americans and as if the Americans didnt get any profit and benefit from the interactions.
And yet..... we are your biggest trading partner. You are merely our tenth biggest trading partner. If profit and benefit from the interaction were not important to you, that would by no means be the case.
Either that, or you would still be engaging in piracy and slave-raiding in the straits of Melaka or on the coast of Kalimantan, Sulawesi, and Mindanawa.
Your ex President Bush are responsible for the dead of thousands of Iraqis while looking for WMD. At the end of his presidency than only he admit it was an intelligence mistake. Can he bring back the dead Mr. ???
A very valid point. I have less than no respect for mr. Bush. And will in no way defend him or his disastrous policies.
I wish him the same fate as I wish your Dr. Mohamad.
Mister Bush is considered by many over here to have been little more than a loathesome oil-industry stooge, and patsy of the Saudis. For whose safety and benefit he invaded Irak.
The reasons he gave for the war were transparent lies, even at the time. And transparently Suadi-inspired.
Please note that Bush and his cronies are STILL benefitting from the connections with their Saudi puppet-masters.
You're on the side that glorifies death. That's all that's on your mind.
Anon Surfer #2
Anon Surfer # 2, you are an idiot. Your side glorifies martyrs, and targets the innocent. Your side consists of cowards, poltroons, and hypocrites.
And also largely consists of ignorant insane masses that yell "death to America", "death to Israel", and "death to Jews".
Your side rejoices at each of our deaths.
How many of you celebrated and feasted after the Bali bombings?
And how many still justified those bombings as justified, even though so few Americans died?
And how many thousands of orang Muslim in Malaysia and Indonesia fervently demonstrated for a pardon for the perpetrators, and voiced their approval for those despicable acts?
You are probably without morals, and certainly without any sense of justice, compassion, or perspective.
both
- you misunderstand me. My response was to the origninal "anonymous" poster to whom you've already responded.
that's ok though. having been threatened abroad by arab tourists in europe has pretty much made me immune to insult.
Aaack. Too many Anonymi - I can no longer keep the Anonites apart!
Mr at the back of the hill said "A very valid point. I have less than no respect for mr. Bush. And will in no way defend him or his disastrous policies."
Now you"re talking Mr. I thought you " dah letak otak dekat kepala lutut". Where you dont have any more sense of reason. But than so many civilians are already dead. The pain for those who are directly involve and those who care still there will take time to heal.
Mr the back of the Hill: "the other one comes across as a Malay-nationalist with an abiding hatred for America and Israel, though he (she?) does not actually express that in his (her?) comments."
Fu Yooh , now you pretend to become a mind reader. Please infer something based on fact not what you think. The world will be better of from this kind of inferences.
Mr Back on the Hill "Clearly they are not expressing love, respect, appreciation, friendship, or anything approaching a peaceful attitude "
Do you expect them to do that to the murderers, occupyers, destructors with their western accomplice. Are you out of your mind? Do you that if any of your relatives murdered by the red indians. What if the Navajo and the Hopi came and occupy your home claiming America is their land?
Mr Back of the Hill:"One Jewish or Israeli life is indeed worth more than a plurality of Jihadi lives"
We have no quarel of you killing thousands of jihadis but then most of who got kill is civillians, woman and children. Mahathir and the likes can only swear and talk. Your leaders kill. What kind of mind can compare mahathir and Bush. Eventhough Mahathir is no angel but comparing with Bush Fu Yooh.
Mr Back on the Hill "Clearly they are not expressing love, respect, appreciation, friendship, or anything approaching a peaceful attitude "
Do you expect the Palestian to say welcome Jewish Immigrant from Russia, Europe etc. "Take up my home, take my orchards. There are a lot of arab countries like to play us as host in their refugee camp. Never mind generations of our kids will spent their life as a refugee untill the end of the world"
Do you expect the Iraqis to say : "Welcome Uncle Sam. Come and search for the WMD. Come and kill us if you have nothing else to do."
Do you think other people are as sickening as the Americans and the Jews?
In the security council,
American alone abstain from condemnation of Israel acts in Gaza. Mr do you support Israel acts in Gaza. 1. Using White Phosphorous lace bom to kill civilians. 2. Bom and Burn down UN building.
Or rather you just abstain.
Mr Back of the Hill:
"Especially not if they nevertheless seek to do business with us, and profit from their association with us"
Way back before APEC, mahathir propose EAEC (East Asia Economic Caucus). USA insist to be part of it. Putting pressure on subservient nations in east asia to make sure they wont be left out. As big a bully they always get their way in the form of APEC. Now Mr. Who is more eager ?
Mr Back of the Hill "And yet..... we are your biggest trading partner. You are merely our tenth biggest trading partner. "
A country which is tiny as New Mexico become the American 10th largest trading partner that quite an achievement I think. Than again partner should be on equal footing. Mr do you have "I am better than thou" kind of attitude? Or you are like some Jewish I am told that they are the only Human, all the others are just rats that can be terminated.
Mr back of the hill said :"Either that, or you would still be engaging in piracy and slave-raiding in the straits of Melaka or on the coast of Kalimantan, Sulawesi, and Mindanawa"
If the Bugis pirates of sulawesi is still out there at the straits the world that we know now will be different.
Fu Yooh , now you pretend to become a mind reader. Please infer something based on fact not what you think. The world will be better of from this kind of inferences.
If I could actually read minds, the world be so much easier, wouldn't it?
Problem is that there are various levels of language use, and undercurrents that glimmer through in texts. The flavour of a comment is often as important as the content. I am not sure all the various anonymous commenters are entirely aware of that.
A country which is tiny as New Mexico become the American 10th largest trading partner that quite an achievement I think.
Indeed. There is no denying that it is an impressive achievement.
Than again partner should be on equal footing.
As regards legal issues involving trade, yes.
As far as politics, no. Nor is there any reason to assume parity of principles.
Mr do you have "I am better than thou" kind of attitude?
Yes, actually I do. As do you. Hence your comment.
Or you are like some Jewish I am told that they are the only Human, all the others are just rats that can be terminated.
You are told - who told you? An examination of sources would prove better than the common hearsay of the Muslim world on that score.
Perhaps you should read Pirkei Avot. There are several excellent translations of that Talmud treatise into English. It will make clear what the Jewish legal and moral philosophy is as regards treatment of other people.
[And please bear in mind that for every opinion in the Talmud, there is a counter-opinion, there are commentaries, and there are contrarian points of view. The Talmud does not set law, it discusses it - frequently in a format of debate. The entire point of the Talmud is not mandated rules, but a methodology of discussion that should inform the application of legal principles. An interesting comparison would be Talmudic laws of evidence versus Sharia laws of evidence. There is much common ground, and the points of difference are largely matters of debate.]
And by the way, what makes you think I am Jewish? The fact that I support our friends and allies, rather than those who scream "death to America" and call for boycotts?
Surely you realize that a constant barrage of criticism, hatred, and angry rhetoric does little to incline us favourably? The anti-Americanism of certain countries and peoples is incredibly counter-productive, as it merely makes us cognizant of your animosity, and spurs the realization that you are not on our side. It further does not make us think "why do they hate us", but rather solidifies our distaste, nay, hatred even, for everything that you represent. Screaming "death to America" is a declaration that you are our enemy - and it leaves us little other option than to hate you. Insofar as we know who you are, or even that you exist.
In what way can the countries whose people and politicians show that they despise us ever be thought worthy of our consideration? And, frankly speaking, why should we even tolerate their embassies or their immigrants?
There are several million green-card holders from places like Malaysia and the Arab world whom I would like to see sent back home, along with all of the Pakistanis migrants who now live here. They are by no means the kind of people we should let in to the country. Not even as students or visitors.
If the Bugis pirates of sulawesi is still out there at the straits the world that we know now will be different.
Think rather, if the Europeans had not fought against and destabilized Makassar centuries ago, the world would be different.
I seem to recall that there were several Bugis kings who were as educated, if not far more so, than even the Jesuits. One in particular who was conversant in several European languages (including Latin), who was considered one of the most remarkable men of his age.
Let also keep in mind that the Buginese had an impressive literature - the longest tale in the world is I La Galigo, and there is much else besides.
At that time the Bugis areas were centres of trade - the piracy came later, after the Europeans had enforced monopolies and thus made more legitimate forms of enterprise impossible. It is the same development that changed the Sulu area from a prosperous trading kingdom into a slave-raiding economy. In that regard, though we cannot say what would have happened if the Europeans had not been in nusantara, we can definitely say that their presence was not beneficial to local polities or cultures.
Do you expect the Palestinian to say welcome Jewish Immigrant from Russia, Europe etc. "Take up my home, take my orchards. There are a lot of Arab countries like to play us as host in their refugee camp. Never mind generations of our kids will spent their life as a refugee until the end of the world"
When the Jews first came to re-establish themselves in Israel, there were far fewer Arabs there. The Jews bought the worst land, and made it into homes and orchards. The increase in economic viability attracted more Arabs. The more Jews returned, the more Arabs came in. This is well known.
Then the British, needing to park their Sharifian allies in a safe place, decided to give the larger part of the mandate territory to one of the sons of Sharif Hussein bin Ali, one Abdullah bin Hussein, thus creating a kingdom which had heretofore not existed out of the Transjordanian part of the mandate territory. Precisely so were the nations of Irak and Syria also created out of other mandates. With borders drawn in the sand which had never before been demarcated. This also is known.
The area to the west of the Jordan river, by far the smaller part of the mandate territory, was then supposed to be for the Jews; that which lay east, for the Arabs.
When Israeli independence was finally permitted by the European nations, who were glad to see a minority so conveniently gotten rid of (leaving only the problem of the Roma and a few other minority groups to extinguish), the lines were narrowed yet further.
Then five Arab armies invaded, to complete the task which Hitler's friend and ally the mufti of Jerusalem had encouraged the Arabs to perform. They lost. Those Arabs who stayed were given citizenship in the reborn nation - they are twenty percent of Israel, and they are represented in the government. The Jews of the Arab world, on the other hand, were stripped of their citizenship, robbed of all they held, and driven out of the lands where they had lived for centuries. Over half of the Jewish population of Israel is of Sefardi or Mizrahi origin. Israel accepted and absorbed those whom the Arabs expelled. The funds robbed from the Egyptian Jews were used to create and fund the PLO - though some of that money still supplements the bank-accounts of Egyptian officials. Yasser Arafat the Egyptian pursued Nasser's grandiose imperial vision with fervor, till money started coming in from other masters. Black September, when the Palestinians tried to destroy the Hashemite Kingdom, and the Lebanese civil war that within a few years followed, were the result.
Yes, there are indeed a lot of Arab countries to host those who left ahead of the Arab armies in 1948. That those "Palestinians" departed with alacrity in order that the Arab armies could slaughter the Jews and pillage the land without hindrance or Arab civilians confusing the issue, should count in their favour with their fellow Arabs. That with the encouragement of their fellow Arabs they have spent the better part of the generations since then engaged in terror against Israel and America should also gain them much credit. That the Arab nations have nevertheless kept them in squalid camps in Lebanon, Syria, Jordan, without accepting them as fellow-Arabs or granting them equal rights, and has thus not only perpetuated their misery but made it even more agonizing, is a blot on the Arab nations.
The Jewish Umma has embraced the Jewish refugees from the Arab world; their children now populate the land.
Isn't it time that the Arabs do likewise to their kin?
They can start by giving them the houses in Rabat, in Casablanca, in Tangiers, Fez, Tunis, Beirut, Damascus, Baghdad, Cairo, and Alexandria - and many other places in Dar-Al-Islam where the Jewish quarters were depopulated - that are now in the hands of army officers, bureaucrats, and other murderers.
Trust me, the Jews from Arab lands still remember fondly the places they were forced out of, as do their sons, and their grandsons. The Islamic world has a lot for which to answer.
And do please note: Holland accepted a quarter of a million refugees expelled from the Dutch East Indies when it became Indonesia. Japan accepted many millions of repatriants from overseas after WWII. India accepted the millions that were forced out of Pakistan, Pakistan accepted an equal number from India. Germany absorbed all the Germans from the Slavic world, many of whom had been there for centuries, when the East-Bloc ethnically cleansed them out. The United States has absorbed tens of millions from all over the world. All of the Western World has dealt well with refugees, not only from its own areas but from all over.
The Muslim world, on the other hand....... Excepting Pakistan and Turkey, the Muslim world has monumentally failed its refugees. This may explain why there are now millions of Muslims in Western Europe and the United States, when a generation ago there were none. The Muslim Umma may wish to spend some time on introspection.
Do you expect the Iraqis to say : "Welcome Uncle Sam. Come and search for the WMD. Come and kill us if you have nothing else to do."
Of course not. That those of us who opposed that ridiculous war from the beginning were not able to prevent it happening is still a cause for heartache.
Do you think other people are as sickening as the Americans and the Jews?
Far worse, in fact. The evidence is that you persist in talking to me, but I am less than enthused by it.
Fu Yooh , now you pretend to become a mind reader.... (cut)
..... but comparing with Bush Fu Yooh.
Fu yoh yau mat yi-si ah? Ngoh m-sik lo.
Sorry, folks, but the term 'fu yoh' is not, strictly speaking, part of my lugat derah. Hokkienwee ngon dapet-la, tathapi Kwantungwa sarwa-sametek oro suwal (Fujianese no can; but Cantonese in all measures no problem).
Feel free to use Dutch, German, English, Tausug, Tamarao, or even Igorot also.
After all, I live in San Francisco. Not in Angmo Kio.
We have no quarel of you killing thousands of jihadis but then most of who got kill is civillians, woman and children.
And
... the murderers, occupyers, destructors ...
Hamas admits it uses human shields
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RTu-AUE9ycs&feature=related
Clickable link: Hamas speaks of human shields
Human Shields - Hamas in action
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kBYtij4Q7sE&feature=related
Clickable link: The use of human shields
hamas using boy as human shield
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TejVJWSTTpY&feature=related
Clickable link: Involuntary human shield
Palestinian girl: Hamas responsible for war long version
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uoi0TGyx_uA&feature=related
Clickable link: Hamas responsible for war
Do you think other people are as sickening as the Americans and the Jews?
Clearly, other people are far far worse.
It almost makes me want to learn Arabic better.
And, speaking of refugees:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boat_people
Clickable link: BOAT PEOPLE
Quote:
"Camps were set up in Malaysia, Thailand, the Philippines, Hong Kong, and Indonesia. According to stories told by the Vietnamese refugees, the conditions at the camps were poor. Very little of the aid money donated primarily by the United States actually got to the refugees."
I seem to recall the Malaysian military pushing overloaded boats back out to sea, without water, fuel, or even motors. Precisely as the Thai coastguard is presently doing to Burmese and Bangladeshi economic migrants.
Oh well, at least the Malays didn't rape the women in nearly the same numbers that the Thais and Cambodians did. Small comfort though that may be.
Should I point out that many Vietnamese in the United States (of which there are at present a well over a million) and also Chinese in the US (nearly seven million, if one includes Sino-viets, Sino-Malay, Sino-Philippino, and other transnational groups) are not 'overly fond' of Thais, Philippinos, Indonesians, and Malays? Or would that be considered rude?
And, to throw the discussion of ethnicities into sharp perspective, please consider the demographics of San Francisco:
White 50%
Asian 32% (of which two thirds are Chinese)
Hispanic (Latino) 14%
Black 7%
[The three percentage point discrepancy is accounted for by the fact that some categories overlap - mixed race and other.]
The block on which I live is thoroughly mixed. My neighborhood is equidistant from a praedominantly Chinese neighborhood and a praedominantly Vietnamese neighborhood. Not much further away is the old Italian district. There are several churches in my nearby, as well as a number of Buddhist and Taoist temples, three mosques, and a synagogue.
Unlike Kuala Lumpur, Singapore, Manila, or Jakarta, there is little or no animus between the groups. Certainly nothing to compare to your racial friction.
There are several churches in my nearby
Should be "There are several churches nearby".
And, of course, I must also mention that we do not maltreat our Indonesian maids. Unlike the fine people of Malaysia. Who seem to do it shockingly often. As an exercise in racism.
Oh wait, we DON'T HAVE Indonesian maids. In fact, we hardly have maids at all.
Tidak apa. Never mind.
I like the phrase, "in my nearby", and will start using it.
Mahathir is a smuck, and Malays are third rate Pakis. So fifth rate Arabs anyhow. An odious petty people without either culture or civilization, imitative, unoriginal, and in all things deficient.
Kind of like the Greeks, in other words.
---Grant Patel
Mahathir is a smuck, and Malays are third rate Pakis. So fifth rate Arabs anyhow. An odious petty people without either culture or civilization, imitative, unoriginal, and in all things deficient.
Kind of like the Greeks, in other words.
You give Mahathir too much credit - remember, Malaysians use more Viagra than any other ethnicity, so 'shmuck' is probably precisily what he may very well not be. But we will not speculate on this matter, as Malay sexuality is an unclean matter. Besides, their tendency to couple their race-riots with gang-rape is sufficiently documented that it need not be discussed here.
Now, as far as the caste-system in the Muslim world is concerned, I'll grant you that clearly Arabs (especially kin of Muhammad the prophet, about whom the less said the better) are clearly at the top of the heap. As to whether Pakis are third rate, Malays fifith rate, I truly do not know. Nor do I particularly care. Malays are first rate thieves in any case, and many Pakis seem to be insane - which, I understand, makes them special. So you see, ranking even in their heap is relative.
Some of my best friends, by the way, are Pakis. Honest.
I suppose the Persians would be number two in the ranking, and the Bonglos perhaps number four? Does proximity make for status? Personally, I prefer Turks. At least they had a civilization, and still have a reasonably metropolitan culture.
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