Tuesday, December 13, 2005

TOOKIE WILLIAMS

Enkele gedachtes aangaande de terdoodstelling van Stanley Tookie Williams
Some thoughts regarding the execution of Stanley Tookie Williams


1. De doodstraf word niet ekwietebel toegepast hier in de VS, dus men kan niet over rechtvaardigheid spreken qua doodstraffen hier - zolang er valide vragen zijn over vonnissen en evenredige toepassing, is de ultime straf absoluut niet moreel. Zelfs al meent men dat de doodvonnis ooit te rechtvaardigen is.

1. Death sentences are not applied fairly in this country, so it is not possible to speak of justice as regards penalties - as long as there are valid questions about sentencing and fairness, exacting the ultimate penalty can not be moral. Even if one believes that death penalties can ever be justified.

2. Er is nauwelijks te twijfelen aan zijn schuld, maar daar gaat het niet om. De kwestie is of men gelooft dat een mens redemptie kan hebben. Kan een mens veranderen, in dit geval vooral na idioot lang in de bajes te hebben gezeten? Na een kwart eeuw achter tralies?

2. There is scarce room to doubt his (Tookie's) guilt, but that is not the issue. The issue is whether one believes that people can be redeemed. Can a person change, in this case especially after a ridiculously long time in the slammer? A quarter of a century behind bars?


Zo ge liberaal zijt moet ge wel geloven dat 't kan. Zo ge kristen of joods zijt, moet ge dat wel geloven. Zelfs Schwartzenegger moet dat geloven - hijzelf beweerde veranderd te zijn, lang niet meer de hufter die meiden bij hare billen greep of ranzige opmerkingen jegens vrouwen slingerde . Hij heeft ook beweerd dat zijn nogal pro-Naziistische opvattingen van zijn jeugd allang verdwenen waren.
Hij heeft dus gezegd dat hij een ander mens dan voorheen was, en dat een mens veranderen kan, maar gunt dat blijkbaar geen andere.


If you're a liberal, you have to believe in the possibility of redemption. If you're Christian or Jewish, you have to believe in the possibility of redemption. Even Schwarzenegger has to believe in it - he himself has claimed to have changed, that he is no longer the scumbag who grabbed girls by the postern, or made rancid remarks about women. He has also claimed that the rather pro-Nazi ideas of his youth have long since disappeared.
In other words, he has said that he is a different person than he once was, and that a person can change, but he evidently does not accept someone else could do likewise.



3. Er is meer dan genoeg aanwijs dat Schwarzenegger omwille politieke redenen gekozen heeft geen clemencie te strekken. Het word algemeen aangenomen dat, zo hij clemencie zou hebben verstrekt, hij nog veel meer van zijn wankel support onder de Californische Republiekeinen zou verliezen. Onder die omstandigheden kan gezegd worden dat hij een bias a priori heeft om niet ekwietiebel te wezen - een beslissing geen clemencie te verstrekken is zowiezo verdacht.

3. There is more than enough to suggest that Schwarzenegger chose against clemency because of political considerations. It is commonly accepted that, if he had extended clemency, he would've lost even much more of his now tenuous support among Californian Republicans. Under these circumstances, it can be said that he had prior reasons not to be fair - a decision to not grant clemency is, right off the bat, suspect.


Anders gezegd, daar Schwarzenegger geen juridisch expert is, en niet kon worden verwacht over zulk een geval een evenredig en onpolitiek beslissing te nemen, zou het eerlijker zijn geweest indien hij zich terug getrokken had - het idee van gouverneuriaal clemencie heeft geen betekenis als de gouverneur omwille redenen anders dan humanitaire medeleven beslist.

To put it differently: because Schwarzenegger is no judicial expert, and could not be expected to render a fair and nonpolitical decision about this case, it would have been more honest if he had recused himself - the concept of gubernatorial clemency is meaningless if the governor is going to decide for other than humanitarian reasons.


Blijft de vraag of politiek ons doodvonnis beleid beinvloed. Maar toch slechts een rhetorische vraag - wie denkt dat politiek niets te maken heeft met doodstraffen, heeft mischien een halve eeuw z'n ogen niet open gedaan.
Ras en kleur blijven een enorme invloed hebben op rechtzaken en vonnissen - er is geen staat in de unie waar men niet kan zeggen dat blanken meer malen de dans ontspringen dan gekleurden.
Zwarte mensen krijgen meer op hun donder van zowel politie als justitie dan menig ander groep (en dat, notabene, terwijl in zwarte buurten de overheid vaak de ogen stijf dicht houd wat betreft geweld en roof - de kans om doodgeschoten te worden is zoveel groter voor laten we zeggen een jonge zwarte dan voor een blanke van middelbare leeftijd zoals mijzelf dat het niet te vergelijken is).


Remains the question whether politics influences death-sentence decisions. But that is only a rhetorical question - anyone who thinks that politics has nothing to do with death-sentences has probably not had their eyes open for the last fifty years.
Race and colour continue to have enormous influence on legal cases and sentencing - there is no state in this union where one cannot say that whites escape justice much more often than people of colour.
Blacks are hammered by the police and the justice system more than almost any other group (and that, nota bene, while the authorities often shut their eyes to violence and robbery in black neighborhoods - the chance of being plugged is so much greater for, let us say, a young black man than for a middle-aged white dude such as myself that there is no comparison).



Ja, er is veel dat goed is hier, maar aan ons rechtsysteem valt nog bijzonder veel te sleutelen, veel te verbeteren.
Indien wij hier niet met recht handelen, blijft het moeilijk om andere landen te overtuigen dat ook zij zichzelve verbeteren moeten.


Yes, there is much that is good in this country, but there is still very much fine-tuning that can be done to our justice system, much that can be made better.
If we don't act justly, it remains difficult to convince other countries to improve their own practises.

--- --- --- --- --- --- --- ---

Post scriptum:
Steg Dindš (dos iz nit der šteg) , in answer to my question, pointed me in the direction of the Talmudic passage about a cruel court, once every seventy years:

Mishneh Makkos 7a: "A Sanhedrin that executes once in seven years is called a destructive court. Rabbi Eliezar ben Azariah says: Once in 70 years. Rabbi Tarfon and Rabbi Akiva say: If we had been on a Sanhedrin, no one would ever have been executed. Rabbi Shimon ben Gamliel remarks: They would then have multiplied the number of murderers in Israel."

8 comments:

Lawyer-Wearing-Yarmulka said...

You can't be redeemed if you don't admit your guilt. Tookie never admitted to the murders, so why should anyone grant him one drop of mercy? Because he wrote some childrens books?

Why is he worthy of clemency anymore than anyone else on death row. If Hollywood wasn't obbsesed with this story, he'd be just another lowlife on death row.

The back of the hill said...

Tayere C.W.Y.,


I didn't say he was redeemed or had redeemed himself. That was not my point.


What I argue is that because our court system is not equitable, and because there have been (many) cases where innocent people have been condemned, there are major problems with death penalties, and therefore even this one is not kosher; and because Governor Schwarzenegger could not decide otherwise than as a question of political advantage, he should have recused himself.

The more so because, having claimed 'redemption' for himself, he is in a wobbly position when asserting the lack of redemption of another person.

For the record, I'm pro death penalty, but only once we have our house in order.

While our justice system fails to meet our own standards, and while there are major flaws as regards trials and sentencing, there should be no death penalty.

It's an all or neither situation. Either the court system is fair to all in all cases (barring an "acceptable" margin of error - which I refuse to accept, btw), or we're all screwed.

Until justice truly is colourblind, we're all screwed.

We should therefore abolish the death-penalty, until the system is fail-safe.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

As far as Tookie being another lowlife on death row, probably, almost certainly. But again, that's not my point, and there still would've been noise.

There always is.

Especially here in California.

As far as his books are concerned, they weren't even really his, but were "co-written" with someone else. And they apparently made some point, whatever the heck it may have been, about not joining gangs or some such..... probably politically correct, probably boring even for the demographic they were aimed at, and in any case not something I'm ever likley to read, wherefore his books do not enter into my thinking.

Lawyer-Wearing-Yarmulka said...

If the death penalty isn't equitable, then granting clemency only makes the problem worse.

Are you arguing that Arnold should grant clemency to everyone on death row in California?

The back of the hill said...

No, in the case of Arnold, I'm recommending that he recuse himself.

And perhpas it might be a good thing to put all death-sentences in the state on hold or commute them, like the governor of Illinois did.


"..."Because the Illinois death penalty system is arbitrary and capricious - and therefore immoral - I no longer shall tinker with the machinery of death."
-----Governor George Ryan

Anonymous said...

Well said and a good analysis, ATBOTH. May I?....

"1. Death sentences are not applied fairly in this country,.../...
Even if one believes that death penalties can ever be justified."


10 points

---

"2. .../... Can a person change, in this case especially after a ridiculously long time in the slammer? A quarter of a century behind bars?"


The answer in Yes imo, and Tookie did!

---

"If you're a liberal,...
If you're Christian or Jewish,...
Even Schwarzenegger...
In other words,..."



11 points!

---

"3. There is more than enough to suggest that Schwarzenegger...

.../... - a decision to not grant clemency is, right off the bat, suspect."



and immoral imo

---

"To put it differently: ...

.../...meaningless if the governor is going to decide for other than humanitarian reasons."



a very good point!

---

"Remains the question...

.../...there is no comparison)."



100 points, eventhough the question was a retorical one :-)

---

"Yes, there is much that is good in this country, but...
If we don't act justly, it remains difficult to convince other countries to improve their own practises."



and acting this way, imho the USA - as the # 1 trendsetter in the world - is setting a very bad example.

Lab Rab said...

John Grisham wrote a decent book exploring (in part) the politics of death row pardons. It's called The Chamber.

I don't know enough about the specific case of Tookie Williams to comment. I do tend to agree with you, though, that placing this decision in the hands of the governor (or any one individual)too easily enables a perversion of morality. There has to be a better way.

Anonymous said...

Back of the hill is an absolute heretic and nobody should read his writings.

Anybody that reads this will be reading apikorsish garbage.

This is BITTUL TORAH.

Tico said...

Wow. This is one of your earlier posts, and you came out swinging. Why no more such deeply thought articles? Have you "mellowed out" (ie: gone soft)?

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