Now bear in mind, bloggers truly like visitors. But there are visitors, and there are visitors..... And sometimes the visitor's comments veer so far off agenda that it is better to continue the discourse elsewhere -- such as right here, for instance. Welcome.
[My previous posting regarding this comment thread was here: http://atthebackofthehill.blogspot.com/2006/08/false-religions.html]
Now, let's take up the conversation where it was left off the last time.
What follows in large Italic is RR speaking, the text in regular type underneath is my response.
RR: "Like South Park, I declare "shenanigan" on the notion that atheism is in any way "an acceptable belief", especially since many atheists are required to hold "unacceptable beliefs" in order to deny God. "
[B.O.T.H.] Actually, atheists are not required to do so - there is no agency requiring anything at all of them. They merely do not believe.
RR: " "(Deut. verses 11/26 through 16/17)" That is just more evidence that it is possible to be Jewish and Christian "just as long as you do not tell anyone", and it is CERTAINLY preferable to being a proud, publicly declared, and evangelical atheist or secularist."
[B.O.T.H.] Not from within the context of those verses it ain't. It specifically refers to holding or doubting Jewish beliefs in one's public expression. Though Christians may have their own interpretation (as indeed they do about nearly everything), those verses can only be seen in light of the long speech by Moses, at the end of his years, to the Jews who will enter the land, telling them what they must do. And what they must do is be Jews. The Torah is not a book of random rules - everything in it must be seen in the context of the rest of it. And there is no other context to it than a Jewish context. What non-Jews do with the text has no validity in a Jewish context.
RR: "Now be perfectly honest with yourself: people can talk about Christianity and Jesus as much as they want around you so long as they are being negative about it. Right?"
[B.O.T.H.] Wrong. I much prefer not to even hear the name of that man, far less listen to any discussion about him. Stating negative things about him would scarce qualify as conversation - in that hardly anything at all of his life can be proven, and it is doubtful that he even existed. Lashon hara about a mythical personage would be rather silly, don't you think?
RR: "If you desire to hold onto negative opinions of Christianity and Christians so strongly that you cannot countenance someone objecting to blanket condemnations and correcting outright untruths, well then your problem is not with Christianity or Christians but with yourself."
[B.O.T.H.] My opinions of Christianity and Christians are based on much exposure to and familiarity with Christianity and Christians. So much so that I feel I have had enough exposure and familiarity, and do not need more.
I am sorry (but NOT repentant) that it seems that it seems to you that I have negative opinions - I merely meant to convey that I have no positive opinion of Christianity and Christians.
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Charlie Hall (whose blog is here: http://charliehall.blogspot.com/ ) wrote this in the comment thread:
RR,
WADR, you clearly do not understand Judaism. Several of us have tried to explain some basic concepts to you and you have rejected them. In particular, there is NO Jewish group that is accepted as Jewish that accepts the idea that it is possible to be both a Jew and a Christian. A Jew who rejects part or even all of the Jewish tradition is still a Jew. But a Jew who actually joins a different religion is no longer considered a Jew for most purposes.
You don't have to like that. You don't have to think it makes any sense. You don't even have to accept it. But that is irrelevant. It is the way it is. We didn't make it up. And we aren't going to change it.
But if you can't accept it, please comment on other kinds of blogs than Orthodox Jewish blogs. We aren't here to debate religion with non-Jews. In fact, according to some of the most distinguished rabbis of our times, we can't -- it violates Jewish law. All we can do is state the facts.
I'm not anti-Christian. But many Jews are, in part because of the refusal by many Christians to accept Jewish teaching as legitimate. Please don't help to create more anti-Christian Jews.
Charlie Hall 08.04.06 - 2:48 am #
I am sorry - I just felt I had to gild the lilly, and expand a little on Charlie Hall's message.
I wrote:
RR,
One thing which Charlie Hall failed to mention must also be said. Namely that arguing from a pro-Christian point of view here does not advance our understanding of Jewish issues, and could well make those who are only marginally negative about Christianity much more so.
I will not claim for myself to be a halachic or hashkafic expert - but debating Christianity with you will certainly not make me one. Nor will it make you one either.
Again, I cannot speak for others here.... but you are certainly not the first convinced Christian I have encountered. I've already been exposed to the Christian points of view regarding these matters. I suspect (and correct me if I'm wrong, folks) that the others here have also been through versions of this before.
Lastly, I am not Rabbi Moises ben Nachman, and you are not Pablo Cristiani - is it not ridiculous to even have this conversation?
With each iteration I become more convinced that Christianity is utterly defective, whereas you merely become more convinced that I am wrong.
The Back of the Hill Homepage 08.04.06 - 6:14 pm #
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The main reason why I've posted about these matters is because to a certain extent I needed to clarify my own point of view. Secondarily, of course, I often have this slightly tingly feeling in my solar plexus everytime that someone gets defensive about Christianity - it isn't like it's a religion in any great danger, except from its practitioners. Why then must one vociferously defend it?
Those who truly wish to delve into its mysteries can surely find a host of welcoming websites, libraries, and ritualariums, in addition to all manner of outreach?
Unlike Judaism, Christianity is a missionary religion. It has a marketing department.
2 comments:
I was ready to take bets on when RR lost his or her patience and began to curse everybody. It's only a matter of time.
Perhaps like Mel Gibson 'his faith tells him not to curse'.
Even though I suspect that he fears for our souls....
And speaking of which, the Christian concepts of heaven and hell seem, like the son of god concept, very Greek. And very Indo-European.
When Avraham and Yakov were joined to their ancestors, it is not specified what their destination was. When Koirach and his partisians were swallowed up, their destination was not specified.
When Yakov lamented for Yosef, he said he would "go down to Sheol".
Sheol seens at times interchangable with kever. Hardly a specific destination, certainly not in any way matching the xtian heaven or hell.
The belief in heaven, in some major ways, conflicts with the idea of techiyas ha meisim. I am not sure how they reconcile those two ideas with any degree of coherence.
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