IT GLITTERS AND SPARKLES!

Have you ever wondered what native speakers of Yeshivish do at night, when no one is watching?

They meet anonymously in the dark, and warf textual quotes at each other. They pant and sweat over sources - Rishonim, Achorim, and.... the RAMBAM!

It's very impressive. Awe-inspiring even. All humour aside, these are some impressive brains whose conversations tend to go into a deep left-field.

I'm posting a small sampling below, from the comment thread on a guest-post by ExtraTorah <http://extratorah.blogspot.com/> on Dovbear's blogs (here: http://dovbear.blogspot.com/2006/12/where-did-miracle-of-oil-come-from.html).

[Note: for those of you who don't have the stamina, you might want to skip directly to the posting underneath this one.]

We take up the comment thread at the mention of Hillel

-------------------------------------------------------

COMMENTS

It has been suggested that R' Yehuda Hansi, a descendant of David, opposed the Hasmonean accession to Royalty, as they were not of the tribe of Yehuda, which is why Chanuka is not mentioned in the Mishnah at all.
Barzilai Homepage 12.21.06 - 6:54 pm #


oy, always with the politics...
Tzipporah 12.21.06 - 7:04 pm #


"What both camps seem to agree about is the fact that there was definitely a time that the story of the military victory was a more prominent part of Chanukah than it is today. There is a range of positions from a) the military victory was on equal footing with the oil-miracle in the original observance"

No - many believe the oil was not essential to the initial events, which were primarily military victory and rededication of the Temple, but not that they weren't essential to initial observance to commemorate those events.
Anonymous 12.21.06 - 8:20 pm #


>It has been suggested that R' Yehuda Hansi, a descendant of David, opposed the Hasmonean accession to Royalty, as they were not of the tribe of Yehuda, which is why Chanuka is not mentioned in the Mishnah at all.

The same R' Yehuda Hanasi that came from Beis Hillel and yet listed Beis Shammai first in all of the mishnayos.
Anonymous 12.21.06 - 8:22 pm #


What does one thing have to do with the other? Your mishna history is as bad as your holocaust history (see the kolel job post for this guys holocaust howlers)
po 12.21.06 - 8:28 pm #


Rabbi Yehuda was not from Bes Hillel . Oh that's funny!
Alex 12.21.06 - 8:37 pm #


>The same R' Yehuda Hanasi that came from Beis Hillel and yet listed Beis Shammai first in all of the mishnayos.

Chasam Sofer suggested it. It's hardly some critical, maskilische pshat.
Anonymous 12.21.06 - 8:42 pm #


> Rabbi Yehuda was not from Bes Hillel .

Oh that's funny!He was a direct descendant of Hillel.
Anonymous 12.21.06 - 9:53 pm #


> What does one thing have to do with the other? Your mishna history is as bad as your holocaust history

Here is the lineage "po"

Hillel
R' Shimon ben Hillel
Rabban Gamliel Hazaken
R'Shimon ben Gamliel I
Rabban Gamliel
R'Shimon ben Gamliel II
R' Yehuda Hanasi
Anonymous 12.21.06 - 10:00 pm #


po - do you just write insults without even thinking? Did you research it? Just saying that "it is BS" doesn't negate the emmes. Nice try.
Anonymous 12.21.06 - 10:01 pm #


Newsflash: What you wrote is polemical garbage put out by non-historians for political reasons. It's not emmes, not by a longshot, which is why calling BS was the perfect response.
Po 12.21.06 - 11:26 pm #


>for political reasons

Not quite.
Anonymous 12.21.06 - 11:35 pm #


Oh. So you think they told lies about other Jews and roundly mischarecterized historical events lshem shamayim? I mean come on. That garbage isn't written by historians. It has no citations. Nothing. It's just someone with an agenda spewing.
po 12.21.06 - 11:39 pm #


That lineage of Hillêl is not at all clear. It appears in the mediaeval סדר תנאים ואמוראים, but I can't find it in any earlier source. The boraiso in Shabbos about הלל ושמעון וגמליאל ושמעון, the nesi'im for the last 100 years of the Temple's existence, says nothing about lineage.

Ah, what about Rebbi's statement in yerushalmi Kil'ayim 9:4? (Let us call this source "H", for "humility".):ר' הוה עינוון סגין והוה אמר כל מה דיימר לי בר נשא אנא עביד חוץ ממה שעשו זקני בתירה לזקני דשרון גרמון ומנוניה
Rebbi [Judah the Nasi] was very humble. He used to say: Anything that a person says to me, I shall do, except that which the Ziqné Bethera did for my ancestor; for they removed themselves, and appointed him.

Is this not clearly a reference to the story in Tosefto/Bavli/Yerushalmi Pesachim, in which the Betherides give up their presidency of the Sanhedrin to Hillel? And doesn't this prove that Hillel was an ancestor of Rebbi?

Actually, no. The paragraph is entirely in Aramaic, except the words חוץ ממה שעשו זקני בתירה לזקני. Whenever we have Hebrew and Aramaic intermingled, the Hebrew is usually the original statement, and the Aramaic is usually Stammaitic explanation. Therefore, it seems that the only original statement actually to be attributed to Rebbi is the words "חוץ ממה שעשו זקני בתירה לזקני". It is true that these words seem to have very little meaning on their own, but they are apparently all that was transmitted of Rebbi’s statement.

Furthermore, it is not clear even whether the Stammaitic expansion is referring to our story or not. After all, the only connection between the stam of H and our story as it appears in T is the use of the verb מני in the pi‘el conjugation (in Hebrew) or the pa‘el conjugation (in Aramaic), which means to appoint. H has no mention of Pesach, or even of Hillel. (Surely, there is no reason to identify Rebbi’s “ancestor” with Hillel, unless one has already decided that H is referring to our story.) Even the statement in the stam of H that the Ziqné Bethera “removed themselves” (דשרון גרמון has no parallel in any version of our story.

In b. Bava Metzi‘a, ed. Vilna, 84b (last line) – 85a, we find another Tannaitic passage which apparently mentions the interlocutors of our story as "בני בתירא". Let us call this passage R (for “Rebbi”). The passage in question appears thus in the Vilna edition of the Bavli:

והיינו דאמר רבי שלשה ענוותנין הן ואלו הן אבא ובני בתירה ויונתן בן שאול [. . .] בני בתירה, דאמר מר הושיבוהו בראש ומינוהו לנשיא עליהן. [. . .] ממאי? דלמא [. . .] בני בתירה [. . .] דחזו להלל דעדיף מינייהו. [. . .]
And this [the context immediately preceding in Bava Metzi‘a] is referred to in the statement of Rebbi [Judah the Nasi]: There are three humble people, namely: my father, and Bene Bethera, and Jonathan son of Saul.[ . . .] Bene Bethera— as the master has taught: They set him up as head, and appointed him Nasi over them. [ . . .] How do we know [that these individuals were truly humble]? Perhaps, the Bene Bethera [gave up their position] only because they saw that Hillel was better than they. [ . . . ]

However, all MSS of this passage read "ובן בתירה", and not "ובני בתירא", in both the Baraitha and the ensuing stammaitic discussion. Thus, Rebbi is not referring to Hillel’s interlocutors at all. Rabbinic literature knows of several individuals with the patronymic Bethera, so it is impossible to draw any conclusions regarding the incident, or the individual, to which Rebbi is referring. It is only the stam of R that identifies Rebbi’s “Ben Bethera” with Hillel’s interlocutors from our story-- but the Stam is much later than Rebbi.

There is one more source, besides H, that Rebbi was considered a descendant of Hillel. However, this other source, a passage in b. Horayoth 11b, is just as weak a proof as H. The Horayoth passage reads as follows:

רב ספרא מתני הכי בעא מיניה רבי מרבי חייא כגון אני מהו בשעיר א"ל התם שבט הכא מחוקק ותניא (בראשית מט לא יסור שבט מיהודה זה ראש גולה שבבבל שרודה את ישראל במקל ומחוקק מבין רגליו אלו בני בניו של הלל שמלמדים תורה לישראל ברבים:
Rav Safra transmits [the preceding story] thus: Rebbi asked R. Chiyya: “Should one like me, [who am a Nasi], offer the goat [which Scripture prescribes as the sin-offering of a nāśī in Leviticus 4:22 ff.]?” He responded: “There [in Babylonia, the exilarch has a] scepter; here [in Palestine, I, as Nasi, have a] staff-of-command.” And it is taught in a Baraitha: “Never shall the scepter [שֵׁבֶט] be gone from [the tribe of] Judah [Genesis 49:10]— this refers to the exilarch in Babylonia, who chastises Israel with the rod; nor the staff-of-command [מְחֹקֵק] from between his legs— this refers to the descendants of Hillel, who teach Torah publicly to Israel.

David Goodblatt (in his book The Monarchic Idea, pp. 157– claims that this passage shows that Rebbi was considered to be a descendant of Hillel. However, this implies that the statement of R. Hiyya and the Baraitha following it are connected. Yet the Baraitha is introduced by the characteristically Stammaitic term ותניא, and cannot have been part of R. Chiyya’s statement. (A brief look through Kosovski’s concordance of the Bavli, s.v. ותניא, vol. 33, p. 359, has confirmed my suspicion that ותניא is used only by the stam.) It is possible that the redactor of this passage believed that Rebbi was a descendant of Hillel, and therefore adduced this Baraitha to support R. Ḥiyya’s statement that the word staff-of-command in Genesis 49:10 referred to Rebbi. However, it is also possible that the redactor appended the Baraitha merely by way of association, for it, like R. Chiyya’s statement, associated the word scepter with Babylonia and staff-of-command with Palestine; according to this latter view, the Horayoth passage does not in any way suggest that Rebbi was a descendant of Hillel.
Mar Gavriel Homepage 12.21.06 - 11:40 pm #


Holocaust? What Holocaust? You are all LIARS!!!
Mahmoud Ahmadinejad 12.21.06 - 11:41 pm #


I'm glad you are here Mahmoud. Denying the holocaust is every bit as irresponsible as blaming it on Jews you don't like. You and anon are two sides of the same coin.
po 12.21.06 - 11:43 pm #


Do you believe the Ramabam (hakdaamh to peeroosh hamishnayos):

אשר נתפרסם מיחס חכמי המשנה, מהם רבן גמליאל בנו של רבי יהודה הנשיא, ורבי יהודה הנשיא בן רבן גמליאל, בן רבי שמעון בן גמליאל הזקן, בן רבן שמעון, בן הלל הנשיא. והוא הלל הבבלי, אשר אליו נסמכה כת מן החכמים האחרונים, ועל דעתו היתה, ונקראת בית הלל. והלל זה הוא מבני שפטיה בן אביטל בן דוד. ואלה השבעה חכמים כבר התבאר שהם מזרע דוד.Mahmoud Ahmadinejad 12.21.06 - 11:45 pm #


po = DB
Mahmoud Ahmadinejad 12.21.06 - 11:45 pm #


Gota go make some comments in the press to scare the world. Bye
Mahmoud Ahmadinejad 12.21.06 - 11:46 pm #


Your cite has nothing to do with this discussion. And I am not DB. DB would have killed you by now.
po 12.21.06 - 11:47 pm #


Do you believe the Ramabam (hakdaamh to peeroosh hamishnayos):

No. He's far too late to be a reliable independent witness to Talmudic history? Does he even claim that his historical account is anything but derivative?
Mar Gavriel Homepage 12.21.06 - 11:47 pm #


> Your cite has nothing to do with this discussion.

That comment was for mar gavriel
Anonymous 12.21.06 - 11:48 pm #


Oh. Well, it was stupid. Relying on the Rambam for ancient history is like relying on Avigdor Miller for holocaust studies, which you have also done.

You seeem like you have a decent brain, though, all things considered. Why can't you understand how stupid your approach is?
po 12.21.06 - 11:49 pm #


Your cite has nothing to do with this discussion.

Sure, it does. Some people on this thread were arguing about whether or not Rebbi had been descended from Hillêl. Therefore, I decided to give an extended quote from an unpublished article that I had written on the topic two years ago.
Anonymous 12.21.06 - 11:50 pm #


Sorry, that (Anonymous 11:50) was I ("that was me").
Mar Gavriel Homepage 12.21.06 - 11:51 pm #


Wait, I'm confused-- who is directed comments to whom? And which one was directed to me?
Mar Gavriel Homepage 12.21.06 - 11:52 pm #


Relying on the Rambam for ancient history is like relying on Avigdor Miller for holocaust studies...

ROTFLMAO!

That is the wittiest thing I've heard all day. Thank you.
The Back of the Hill Homepage 12.22.06 - 12:13 am #


Mar Gavriel - also see Shabbos 15a

הלל ושמעון גמליאל ושמעון נהגו נשיאותן בפני הבית מאה שנה

and Tosafos Avodah Zarah 32a

זה היה רשב"ג הזקן אביו של ר"ג דיבנה שהוא זקנו של רבי

the Rishonim knew what they were talking about.

Based on this, I reiterate what was listed earlier:

Hillel
R' Shimon ben Hillel
Rabban Gamliel Hazaken
R'Shimon ben Gamliel I
Rabban Gamliel of Yavneh
R'Shimon ben Gamliel II
R' Yehuda Hanasi
Anonymous 12.22.06 - 12:17 am #


>Relying on the Rambam for ancient history

"ancient history" - or "mesora"?
Anonymous 12.22.06 - 12:20 am #


> That lineage of Hillêl is not at all clear. It appears in the mediaeval סדר תנאים ואמוראים

Isn't the Rambam an earlier source?
Anonymous 12.22.06 - 12:26 am #


Rambam (corrected version - diff than above):

מה שידוע מיחוסי חכמי המשנה מהם רבן גמליאל בנו של ר' יהודה הנשיא. ור' יהודה הנשיא בן רבן שמעון בן רבן גמליאל בן רבן שמעון בן רבן גמליאל הזקן בן רבן שמעון בן הלל הנשיא. והוא הלל הבבלי שעל שמו נתיחסה חבורה מן החכמים ההולכים בשטתו, לפיכך נקראו בית הלל, והלל זה הוא מבני שפטיה בן אביטל בן דוד, הנה נתבאר ששבעת חכמים אלו הם מזרע דוד.
Anonymous 12.22.06 - 12:27 am #


Also see Machzor Vitri 424
Anonymous 12.22.06 - 12:34 am #


Shabbos 15a

הלל ושמעון גמליאל ושמעון נהגו נשיאותן בפני הבית מאה שנה

Yes, I referred to that source in my exposition above. As I said, the source tells us nothing about LINEAGE. Who says that Shim`ôn was the son of Hillêl, or that Gamli'êl was the son of Shim`ôn I?

Tosafos Avodah Zarah 32a

זה היה רשב"ג הזקן אביו של ר"ג דיבנה שהוא זקנו של רבי

a) That's mediaeval.
b) Nu? That source doesn't mention Hillêl.

Isn't the Rambam an earlier source?

Not sure. But he's still mediaeval.
Mar Gavriel Homepage 12.22.06 - 12:52 am #


>Nu? That source doesn't mention Hillêl.

It links Rebbi to R' Gamliel of Yavneh's father R' Shimon ben Gamliel hazaken, who is listed in that Gemara in Shabbos.
Anonymous 12.22.06 - 12:55 am #


Also, see the Tashbatz (my source for the corrected version in the Rambam) chelek 1 siman 136
Anonymous 12.22.06 - 12:56 am #


There is a very interesting essay by Rav Schwab on the significance and limits of the scholarly study of history. Those of you who believe in the Mesorah will find it fascinating and stimulating, and those of you who don't will congratulate yourselves for your emancipation. So everyone will have a nice Chanukah evening.http://www.tzemachdovid.org/gedo.../
Barzilai Homepage 12.22.06 - 12:57 am #


בגמ' הוא מפורש שאחר הלל נהג נשיאות שמעון וכן נר' מדברי הרמב"ם ז"ל בפי' המשנ' כמו שכתבת אתה ג"כ. וכן בפתיחת המדע. ובנו של שמעון זה שהוא דור ג' להלל הי' ר"ג הזקן שתקן כל אותם התקנו' השנויות בגטין )פ"ד( והוא נזכר בפ"ק דאבות אחר הלל ושמאי ואחריו הי' שמעון בנו הנזכר אחריו שם והוא הי' מעשרה הרוגי מלכות שהרי בזמן החורבן הי' ונשאר ר"ג השני קטן ונהג נשיאות במקומו רבן יוחנן בן זכאי כדמוכח באגד' גטין בפ' הניזקין )נ"ו ע"ב( וזה ר"ג הי' אחי אשתו של רבי אליעזר כדמוכח בפ' הזהב )נ"ט ע"ב( ובפ' כל כתבי )קט"ז ע"א( והוא שהעבירו אותו מהנשיאות לכבוד רבי יהושע בן חנניה והושיבו במקומו רבי אלעזר בן עזריה ובאותו דור הי' ר"ע כדאית' בפ' תפלת השחר )כ"ח ע"א( ובנו של ר"ג זה השני היה רשב"ג המוזכר בכל התלמוד שאמרו )גיטין ע"ה ע"א( כ"מ ששנה רשב"ג במשנתינו הלכה כמותו חוץ מערב וצידן וגו'. ורצו ר' מאיר ור' נתן לביישו ולהעבירו מהנשיאות ולא עלתה בידם וקנסו אותם שלא יהיו נזכרים בשמם בבית המדרש. והעלו לר' מאיר שם אחרים ולר' נתן יש אומרים כדאי' בסוף הוריות )י"ג ע"ב(. ובנו של רשב"ג היה רבי שחבר ספר המשנה כדאיתא בפ' )הבא על יבמתו( ]החולץ[ )מ"ג ע"א ע"ש( והיו קורין אותו רבינו הקדוש כדאיתא בפ' כל כתבי )קי"ח ע"ב( והיה שמו ר' יהודא הנשיא כדמוכח )בגיטין( ]בקדושין[ )ס"ג ע"א( ובפ' )כירה( ]במה מדליקין[ )ל"ב ע"ב( ובכמה מקומות מהתלמוד ומוכח בפ' השוכר את הפועלים )פ"ד ע"ב( שרבי היה בנו של רשב"ג
Anonymous 12.22.06 - 12:59 am #


Above is from the Tashbatz
Anonymous 12.22.06 - 12:59 am #


It links Rebbi to R' Gamliel of Yavneh's father R' Shimon ben Gamliel hazaken, who is listed in that Gemara in Shabbos.

Nu? So what? I never doubted that Rebbi was the son of רשב"ג (obviously), nor that רשב"ג was the son of רבן גמליאל דיבנה, nor that רבן גמליאל דיבנה was the son of רשב"ג הזקן, nor even that רשב"ג הזקן was the son of רבן גמליאל הזקן.

All that I doubted was that any of them was descended from Hillêl!
Mar Gavriel Homepage 12.22.06 - 12:59 am #


A quote from the abovementioned article by rav Schwab zt'l that will ranckle the majority of DB commenters:

Reading the "Bible" without the commentaries of our Sages is like studying astronomy with the naked eye--without the use of a telescope. We are bound to misunderstand everything.
Anonymous 12.22.06 - 1:03 am #


>I never doubted that Rebbi was the son of רשב"ג (obviously), nor that רשב"ג was the son of רבן גמליאל דיבנה, nor that רבן גמליאל דיבנה was the son of רשב"ג הזקן, nor even that רשב"ג הזקן was the son of רבן גמליאל הזקן.

So you are doubting that R' Gamliel Hazaken was the grandson of Hillel - he might not be the Gamliel mentioned in Shabbos:

הלל ושמעון גמליאל ושמעון נהגו נשיאותן בפני הבית מאה שנה
Anonymous 12.22.06 - 1:08 am #


You don't believe that the Rambam had a mesora about that?
Anonymous 12.22.06 - 1:08 am #


So you are doubting that R' Gamliel Hazaken was the grandson of Hillel - he might not be the Gamliel mentioned in Shabbos:הלל ושמעון גמליאל ושמעון נהגו נשיאותן בפני הבית מאה שנה

No no no! I am not doubting that Rabbon Gamli'êl Hazzokên is the Gamli'êl mentioned in Shabbos. I am doubting rather that the list of nesi'im in Shabbos is listing a father-son lineage.
Mar Gavriel Homepage 12.22.06 - 1:16 am #


You don't believe that the Rambam had a mesora about that?

About what? Rebbi's descent from Hillêl? Yes, I think that Rambam is basing himself on a mesôro, but that that mesôro does not go all the way back to Rebbi's time, but rather is later, and is based on the confusion regarding the identity of בן בתירה or בני בתירה.
Mar Gavriel Homepage 12.22.06 - 1:19 am #


Here's what R' Nissim Gaon says in Berachos 28a (he has a different girsa in the Gemara than we have today):

עשה בשביל כבוד בית אבא, כלומר בשביל הלל הזקן זקני שהי' מזרע דוד

that's R' Gamliel Hazaken speaking - do it for my family's (Hillel's) honor.
Anonymous 12.22.06 - 1:25 am #


Oops! That was R' Gamliel of Yavneh speaking.
Anonymous 12.22.06 - 1:28 am #


Anonymous 1:25-- interesting citation from R. Nissim Go'ôn. I'll look it up later. For now, I'm going to sleep.

חדש טוב
Mar Gavriel Homepage 12.22.06 - 1:28 am #


Okay - here's an earlier source (quoted by R' Nissim Gaon) in our Talmud Yerushalmi maseches Taanis:

אמר רבי לוי מגילת יוחסין מצאו בירושלם וכתוב בה הלל מן דדוד
Anonymous 12.22.06 - 1:31 am #


It's a shame you went to sleep before seeing that Yerushalmi.

Yerushalmi = Chazal
Anonymous 12.22.06 - 1:33 am #

-------------------------------------------------------

As you can see, this conversation (which resumed this morning, and is STILL ongoing) went into overdrive shortly after dinner time, and continued untill way after midnight.

From which we learn that it is winterbreak, and several yeshivisti are full of beans.
There is nothing, absolutely nothing, which I can contribute to this conversation.

So I will steal it. Because it is fascinating stuff, and I'm impressed.