I am usually fairly certain that my employers are happy that I am not in customer service. They should be especially happy today.
This morning our customer-service telephone person told an end-user: "If you can't touch the water, don't pour it on your child."
IF YOU CAN'T TOUCH THE WATER, DON'T POUR IT ON YOUR CHILD
Overhearing this brought two things to mind:
1. "No no, you should hold it under till the skin peels off easily. Then dip it in cold water to maintain the nice red colour."
2. Yad soledet bo ("the hand recoils from it"). One does not violate the rule against melacha on shabbes if one does not heat something to the temperature at which, upon touching it (or the vessel containing it) one instinctively pulls away one's hand.
So, as the main example, and not veering into maachal ben Drosai, one may make tea with water poured ('irui') from the primary vessel ('kli rishon') in which one kept the water hot into the second vessel (('kli sheini')), which will decrease the temperature (yet further), whereupon one places the teabag in the warm water of the second vessel. Or, if the water is too hot to touch, one pours it yet again - into a third vessel ((('kli shlishi'))). Note that the water-heater (primary vessel, the kli rishon) has to be either plugged in or placed on the blech before shabbes.
But this is natural - surely the customer would've grasped this?
The skin of a child is more sensitive than that of an adult, and even among adults, sensitivity to heat varies. Wherefore yad soledet bo is relative, and you clearly shouldn't have your brat make tea on Saturday.
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Rabbi Yochanan said: kol she yesh bo kemaachel ben drusai ain bo mishul bishulei goyim.
What this means is that a Jew can place the kli rishon on the fire, and the gentile can (later) pour it on the child if he so wishes, ut it is assur for the Jew to do so.
Rav Chananel disagrees, because it is not choshesh that the gentile brought about a change in the water. Ein bishul.
What the ......
I mean, let's discuss!
You make good points, reb Anonymus, but what about the distinction between half-baked (as regards hilchos shabbes), versus one third soft in the head (such as what is outlined above)?
Le chumra, it is possul if the water is at 33.3 degrees Celsius (on third toward boiling) at the point when it is put on the fire (because of the involvement of the gentile in bringing it to a roiling boil) - it would have to be at 50 degrees (see rules regarding bishel akum).
But that makes it impossible for the Jewish person to be involved in it - melocho.
It seems that the crucial point is at what temperature the skin comes off easily.
Bedieved, if it blisters your hand, it is at the right temperature. Kal ve chomer if the burn requires medical attention.
Note: for the even more Talmudically impaired than myself, Maachal Ben Drosai implies food that is partially cooked - no longer "raw", but not "cooked" either.
Rashi states one third cooked, Rabam avers one half. The adherence to a half cooked definition is a chumra, but the basic idea is that it is a relative state, with evident change having already taken place. The food is no longer raw. But it is not at the stage where one would eat it (that it is fit to be eaten: ra'ui le achila).
And further: Maachal Ben Drosai is so called after the bandit Ben Drosai, who was always on the run and could therefore not cook his food to the point of ra'ui le achila - he would scarf it down half-cooked.
Rabam avers one half
That should be 'Rambam' avers one half.
Rambam: Rabbi Moshe ben Maimon (1135 – 1204), also known as Maimonides. One of the most famous exegetes ever. Look him up on Wikipedia.
Regarding yad soledet bo, it should also be noted that if the substance being heated was already at that stage before the involvement of the gentile, it can be maintained at that temperature by the gentile with bishul akum coming into play. Ain bishul achar bishul - there is no cooking after cooking.
Which means that for cooked food on shabbes, it should already be fit for consumption before shabbes. A pot of tsholnt should be edible on Friday afternoon - the long slow drwosing in the embers or the heat of a low oven, while it improves the dish, does not actually make it cooked. This per the Rambam also.
One could object that tsholnt is not meant to be eaten without having been subjected to the several hours of low heat in the oven. But it has passed the stage of maachal ben Drosai, so it is permitted.
with bishul akum coming into play.
Should be withOUT bishul akum coming into play.
Sorry, my hands are traitors to my head at this point.
the long slow drwosing in the embers
Should be: the long slow drOWsing in the embers....
Regarding a previous topic...
Baby Jesus Butt Plug and the religious dildo creche
From my own experience, and without reference to water temperature: you would be amazed at what customers cannot grasp.
Tayere e-kvetcher,
I suspect that those items are marketed primarily to the ex-Christian market. The only thing missing is the string of beads.....
An entrepeneur would decide to sell them to the Thais - like the Buddhist good-luck dildoes, for placement on the spirit altar at the back of the store.
I note, by the way, that superstitious Philippinos usually have a statuette of some hideous bebby jayzus in their houses or stores. It is the same phenomenon. Pre-monotheistic Shivaism. As represented by a lingam with a face.
To continue the ex-Christian issue, it would be might interesting to find out what percentage are used, and what percentage are for display only.
And what the attitude towards religion in general was among both the users and the exhibitionists.
When you say "used", I hope you mean "purchased" and not "sold second hand" (or are we not talking about what I think we're talking about?).
An idol of the patron-saint of butt-plugs:
http://www.ad.nl/multimedia/archive/00092/kabouter_buttplug_92413c.jpg
Also known as 'butt-plug' Santa. Located, where else, in the Netherlands. Tilburg city, I believe. In the blogmaster's old home province.
When you say "used", I hope you mean "purchased" and not "sold second hand" (or are we not talking about what I think we're talking about?).
Purchased in any case - beware the free plug!
What I meant was 'used for the purpose of corking the buttle', versus 'placed on the coffee-table to prompt conversation'.
Like the arm-sized dildoes available at certain Broadway emporia, one would not imagine the more extroverted examples to be oft hidden. Though one might not want to see them, necessarily.
learning halakha all day long has warped my mind... i now know of only two temperatures — yad soledet bo and not yad soledet bo
Steg, that's definitely the best comment here.
And there are only two possible temperatures, for everything - ysb and not-ysb.
Everything.
If the hand recoils, it is too hot to plug ANYWHERE, let alone 'there'.
Surely you grasp this?
Actually better not grasp it.
A) It is too hot; and
B) Where has it been?
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